Quick Answer
When a child is struggling with substance use or mental health, parents often find themselves in reactive mode — matching their child’s chaos and escalating conflict. This episode explores how non-reactivity is a strategic, powerful tool that parents can learn to use. By pausing, breathing, and doing a quick body scan, parents can stop fueling the fire and begin to reclaim a sense of calm authority in their homes.
Key Takeaways
- Chaos needs two participants — when you stop supplying your reaction and energy, the escalation has nowhere to go.
- Your body sends physical signals before you react: noticing the ‘butterfly convention,’ pounding heart, or feeling of disassociation is your cue to pause.
- Non-reactivity is not passive — it is how parents begin to reclaim calm authority because the only thing in your control is yourself.
- Having a go-to phrase memorized, like ‘I love you too much to allow this to be part of our relationship, I’m gonna step away,’ gives you something concrete to use in the moment.
- Practicing non-reactivity in low-stakes situations — like being cut off in traffic — builds the skill so it is available when you need it most.
In this article
Episode Resources
- The Stream — Free Two-Week Trial for Moms
- Worried Sick Free E-Book
- Hopestream Community Podcast Episodes
Hopestream Community is a registered 501(c)3 nonprofit organization and an Amazon Associate. We may make a small commission if you purchase from our links.
About the guest: Cathy Cioth
Cathy Cioth is a member of the Hopestream Community team who works closely with parents navigating a child’s substance use and mental health challenges. She has personal experience parenting through addiction and has spent significant time supporting mothers across every stage of this experience. She co-hosts podcast episodes with Brenda Zane on practical tools and skills for parents.
Why Non-Reactivity Is a Strategic Tool, Not a Soft Skill
Brenda and Cathy opened this conversation by naming something that often gets overlooked: the acceptance and non-reactivity piece of the Invitation to Change approach — which combines CRAFT, motivational interviewing, and ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) — tends to get ‘lobbed off and forgotten about.’ The focus often goes to boundaries, natural consequences, and self-care. But Cathy described non-reactivity as something different: a tool you can think about ahead of time, almost premeditate on, so that when a charged moment arrives, you already know what to reach for.
What makes it so powerful, they explained, is that it does not require you to memorize a script or follow a set of steps in the heat of the moment. It is more about how your body feels and being mindful of that — which is something you can begin practicing right now, even in low-stakes situations.
How Chaos Needs Two Participants
One of the clearest frames from the episode: chaos needs two participants. There is a reactor and a reactee. When a parent stops supplying their reaction, their energy, their drama, the escalation simply cannot continue — there is no second part to it.
‘I can’t think of a single time with my son where it benefited both of us for me to come and match his level of energy and escalation and drama and chaos. Can’t think of a single one.’ — Brenda Zane
Cathy added that this is also true in situations involving manipulation or gaslighting — not just loud, escalating conflict. Matching the other person’s intensity in any of those situations just leads to co-escalation, and as both hosts observed, everyone walks away feeling awful. Even kids, they noted, do not actually want that outcome.
What Reactivity Feels Like in Your Body
Both Brenda and Cathy described the same physical experience when they are about to react: what Brenda called a ‘butterfly convention’ happening high in the chest, followed by a pounding heart, and then a kind of disassociation — almost an out-of-body experience of watching yourself lose control. Cathy described it as feeling like the reaction is almost frightening in how physical it becomes.
The reason it matters to recognize these signals is that your body gets there first. Before you have consciously decided to react, your nervous system is already signaling. That is the moment to pause. And deep breathing — especially with a longer exhale — was described as a surprisingly effective way to start regulating the nervous system in real time, even when it seems too simple to work.
Real Stories: When Non-Reactivity Changed Everything
Brenda shared a story from a day when her son was supposed to help pack the house during a move. He was disengaged, and when he asked if they would be done soon, barely half an hour in, she felt the escalation start. She matched his energy — and they went at it for hours. Then something shifted. She stepped back, looked at him almost the way she would watch a two-year-old throw a tantrum, and said quietly: ‘I’m not doing this. You can go. Just go.’
‘That was, for me, I think the start of me realizing the power of my response was a lot more than I thought it was, ’cause I saw the instant change in him.’ — Brenda Zane
Cathy shared her own moment — a screaming argument with her daughter about writing a thank you note to her grandparents. In the middle of it, she stopped, looked at her daughter, and said ‘I’m walking away.’ And she did. She described that as the beginning of her own ‘very uneven recovery’ — because it was not long after that things started to change in her home. She realized she had been contributing to the dynamic by always engaging.
Practical Steps to Take When You Feel Reactive
Brenda and Cathy were clear that non-reactivity is not something you can white-knuckle your way into in a moment of crisis. It requires what they called a rewiring of your whole system — an update to your operating system — so that calm becomes the default rather than the exception. Here are the practical suggestions they offered:
- Start with a body scan. Even if you change nothing else this week, just begin noticing what happens in your body when you feel triggered. Run an experiment: observe without changing your response yet, just to gather information about yourself.
- Pause and breathe. Deep breathing with a longer exhale can immediately begin to regulate your nervous system. Box breathing was mentioned as one option. YouTube has many variations to try.
- Have a go-to phrase ready. The hosts shared a line from a previous episode guest: ‘I love you too much to allow this to be part of our relationship. I’m gonna step away, and we can pick this up later.’ Memorize it. Write it down. Use your child’s name if it helps.
- Visualize ahead of time. If you know Thursday nights are always hard, picture yourself staying calm before Thursday arrives. Visualization helps you embody the feeling so it is less unfamiliar when the moment comes.
- Practice in low-stakes moments. Getting cut off in traffic produces the same physical signals as a conflict at home. Use those moments to practice noticing and pausing.
- Know when to call for help. Non-reactivity is not about pushing down a genuine safety concern. If your nervous system is signaling that you are actually unsafe, call a crisis line or ask for help. There is a difference between real danger and just being very uncomfortable.
And when it all falls apart — because it will — Cathy and Brenda both said the same thing: give yourself grace, treat it as a teachable moment, and remember that the do-over is always available. You can go back to your child and say you did not like how you handled something. Another opportunity will come. It always does.
Connect with parents who get it
You don't have to navigate your young adult's addiction alone. Join The Stream, our private community where moms find understanding, practical strategies, and hope from others who truly get it.
Frequently Asked Questions
Is non-reactivity the same as not caring or giving up?
No — Brenda and Cathy were direct about this. Non-reactivity is actually described as the opposite of giving up. It is the way a parent starts to take back calm authority, because the only thing in your control is yourself, and taking back control of yourself shifts the dynamic in your home.
How do I practice non-reactivity before a crisis moment happens?
The hosts suggested practicing in low-stakes situations, like noticing your physical response when someone cuts you off in traffic. They also recommended visualization — if you know certain situations tend to trigger you, mentally picture yourself staying calm before they happen.
What is the ‘butterfly convention’ they keep mentioning?
It is the phrase Brenda used to describe the physical sensation she notices in her chest right before she is about to react — a fluttery, anxious feeling. Cathy described a similar experience with her heart pounding loudly and a feeling of almost disassociating. Both described it as the body’s early warning signal that reactivity is coming.
Should I address every issue my child brings up, like disrespect or demands?
Brenda and Cathy talked about how easy it is to get pulled into battles over things that feel important — like handwritten thank you notes — when the bigger issue is something else entirely. They suggested asking yourself whether this is the thing that truly needs your energy right now, and letting some things go with the understanding they can come back later.
What do I do when I fail and react anyway?
Both hosts said this will happen, and to treat it as a teachable moment rather than a failure. They emphasized giving yourself grace and mentioned that a do-over is always possible — you can go back to your child and acknowledge that you did not like how you handled something.
What does ‘updating your operating system’ mean for parents?
It is the analogy Brenda used to describe the process of genuinely changing how you respond — not white-knuckling through individual moments, but doing the internal work to rewire your patterns so that non-reactivity becomes more natural over time. When you update, your child will notice the change, even if they do not say anything about it.
AI Answer Summary
Q: What does non-reactivity actually mean for parents of struggling teens?
Non-reactivity means choosing not to match your child’s energy, escalation, or drama. As discussed in the episode, chaos needs two participants — a reactor and a reactee — and when a parent stops supplying their reaction, the escalation loses fuel and often burns out.
Q: How can I tell when I am about to become reactive?
Both hosts described noticing physical signals in their bodies first — a ‘butterfly convention’ in the chest, a pounding heart, and a feeling of almost disassociating or having an out-of-body experience. Paying attention to those bodily cues is the first step toward being able to pause instead of react.
Q: What can I actually do in the moment when I feel reactive?
The episode suggests pausing and doing deep breathing with a longer exhale, which can instantly start to regulate your nervous system. Having a go-to phrase ready — like ‘I love you too much to allow this to be part of our relationship, I’m gonna step away’ — and visualizing yourself staying calm ahead of known trigger situations were also recommended.
Q: Does being non-reactive mean I am just letting my child walk all over me?
No — the hosts were clear that non-reactivity is the opposite of being a doormat. It is actually how a parent starts to take back authority, because the only thing in your control is yourself, and when you take back control of yourself, you shift the dynamic in your home.
Q: What if I completely fail and react anyway?
The hosts said this will happen, and to give yourself a lot of grace when it does. They described those moments as teachable moments, and noted that you can always go back to your child and say you did not like the way you handled something — the do-over is always available.
Transcript
Episode 345
[00:00:00] I can’t think of a single time with my son where it benefited both of us for me to come and match his level of energy, and escalation, and drama, and chaos. No, I can’t either, ’cause I have two kids, and not once did that ever help
Welcome to Hope Stream, the podcast for parents of teens and young adults struggling with substance use and mental health. I’m Brenda Zane. I’ve walked this path with my own child’s addiction and high-risk lifestyle. Each week, we help you gain clarity, learn new skills, and most importantly, find real hope in what might feel helpless.
You are not helpless, and you’re not alone anymore. Find more resources at hopestreamcommunity.org.
Hello, Miss Cathy Hey, Brenda It’s podcast day It is podcast day, and I was almost late for podcast
[00:01:00] day. I’m so glad you sent me a text. Yeah. Otherwise It’s like, “Oh, hey.” Just FYI. We both have so much going on right now that it- We do … uh, texts are helpful. Yeah. Yeah I think we’re both feeling a little discombobulated because we got a lot going on, moves, and parents, and family, and- That’s right
travel, and all of that, which is all good, right? It’s like all the problems. I always just… During those days of struggle, I was like, “If only I could just have that as a problem.” I know. It, it’s so funny that you say that because I was thinking what I feel is really stressful right now, like you said, the move and everything, my background is so plain right now.
And I was thinking, when we were really in the thick of it with our kids, oh my gosh, I mean, we had all of this stuff also going on. My husband’s parents were super ill and dying, and we were dealing with moving them out of their forever home- Yeah … out of, basically to
[00:02:00] a whole new city to be near us, and then there was obviously all the stuff going on with the schools, and just a lot of stress.
And dealing with our own kids’ challenges, too, which brought… was a family challenge, right? I also said, “Can I just have just a regular stressful life without the whole mental health symptoms-” Can I just have a regular- “… that’s part of it?” … problem, please? And now I’m also wishing at this part of my life, “Okay, I accept this, and it’s really good.”
I’m grateful for a lot of it, right? Because we talked about that with our elderly parents. It’s really, really special that we can be there for them. And also, just to admit it is kind of stressful. It just is. Yeah. Yeah. There’s just a lot going on. And I think- Mm … it, it’s good to recognize for our parents who are listening to this that we do recognize that this is not- Yeah the only thing going on in your life. It tends to take over because it- Mm-hmm … the biggest usually,
[00:03:00] usually, not always, tends to be- Yeah … the scariest thing going on at the moment, and so it occupies a huge percentage of your brain. But we also know that jobs are happening and all of that, so- Mm-hmm … context is good.
So- Context is good. Yeah, for sure But I know I sent you this topic, I don’t know, a couple weeks ago, and I said, “Hey, I think this would make a really good podcast episode,” because Cathy and I have the privilege of hovering over hundreds of moms in every stage, from- Yeah … deer-in-headlights, brand new, just got the call from the college, right, that something’s going south, to- Yeah our warrior moms who’ve been in it for 15 years or more. And so we get to see all stages of this experience. That’s right. And- That’s right … this topic that we’re covering today
[00:04:00] is one that I think we teach the Invitation to Change approach, right, which is CRAFT- Right … plus motivational interviewing, plus ACT, which is acceptance and commitment therapy.
I have come to realize that that ACT part of it tends to get like lobbed off and forgotten about a lot. Yeah. We tend to focus on boundaries, self-care, natural consequences, all of those things, and those are awesome things. And there are some of these, what I’m thinking of as maybe softer skills, that are so important.
It’s like there’s a reason why they’re included in the Invitation to Change approach. They didn’t just like willy-nilly say, “Oh, hey, let’s- Right … just throw this in for some reason.” Right, right. So that’s what we’re here to talk about today, and you seem to think it was a good idea. Yeah. I think it’s a great idea, and I think we’re also gonna kind of really explain what it really is, right? What
[00:05:00] acceptance really is and all of that, and I think that’s really important because I do think maybe that’s, that could be one of the reason why some people really don’t like to focus on it, ’cause they think, “Oh, heck no, I’m not doing that.” And we really need to put this all in the context that it’s meant to be in and what it really means, and that’s what we’re gonna talk about today.
I think it’s gonna be really helpful. Hopefully it’ll be helpful. I think it will. I think it will. And I realized as part of this that monks have been talking about- … acceptance and non-reactivity for thousands of years. So- Oh my gosh … this is not something that Cathy and I just cooked up in the back shed last week. This is- No, otherwise we would have monk titles. And we clearly do not qualify- Clearly … for that or have it. But to really be a student of monks sometimes I think is a really good thing. I think it’s just so important because it really
[00:06:00] brings into going with the flow, really the rhythm, right, of life. And I think it’s human nature to really chop things up and say, “I don’t like this, so I’m gonna try to stop it and control it.” We can’t control the ocean. There are so many things that we can’t control, and this is kind of… This is… Anyway, I’m excited about this topic. We should get into it. Yeah, well, we, we like to talk about strategic tools, and so- Yeah … that’s kind of how we’re gonna talk about this, where a lot of times, I think we’re talking about acceptance as more of a maybe a psychological concept.
And what we’re doing today is we know y’all like practical tools. We all like practical tools- … especially when something chaotic is going on in your home. And so what we thought we would do is talk about this idea of- Non-reactivity, what that means, how it relates to acceptance, and then give you some actual tools to use,
[00:07:00] because we know it’s not easy. Like, if it was easy, none of us would be here. So we know that you need and want those strategic tools to create change in your family because you’re scared and you’re exhausted and you’re like, “Please, somebody help me make something happen in this whole situation.” Yeah. So first, I think the first thing just to say is that this is a strategic move.
It’s a very, very powerful tool to use when you’re trying to shift the vibe, the energy, the dynamic in your home, because that tends to be pretty out of whack. We do hear every once in a while about a kiddo who’s like, parents will say, “Oh no, they’re very compliant, and they just kind of stay in their room, and they-” Right don’t really do a lot. I would say that’s a pretty small percentage. I would say- Uh-huh … and you talk to all of our new members, so you would know even
[00:08:00] more, but I feel like more common is the chaos. Would that be a true statement? A thousand percent true statement, for sure. It’s so funny you mention that. I think I’ve heard maybe one or two parents say, “Oh yeah, my kid’s super compliant.”
I love this tool because for me personally, some of the other tools that we talk and teach about, it’s hard to really put them into action sometimes. Even when you’re practicing them- Yeah … you can get flubbed up by, oh gosh, what does that acronym mean? What exactly do I need to do? What are all those steps?
And- What is the information sandwich again? Yeah. Hey, I’m gonna be honest with you all. There are times I have to look that up. I mean, it’s crazy. Yeah. Some of the tools we just use naturally, right? And so we’ve used them enough with our families right now. But don’t feel bad if you’re three years into this and you’re like, “What is that again?” That is okay. Mm-hmm. Just do not beat yourself up over that at
[00:09:00] all. But what I love about this tool is that it really can be thought about and, if the word is right, premeditated on before, right? Mm-hmm. You can really think about how you’re gonna use this. Hopefully you do that enough so that when that time comes, you’ll know like, “Oh, okay, this is one of those times I can tap into it,” versus when you’re trying to use a communication tool and you get a little flubbed up and you’re not really sure what to do. This is really tapping into how our body feels, the emotions around it, and being mindful of all that. Yes. Well, because chaos needs two participants, right? Oh, yeah. You can’t have… I mean, you can. People can be chaotic, but in general, chaos really needs two participants. You need the reactor- Right … and the reactee, and then when you stop supplying your reaction,
[00:10:00] your energy, your drama, then it just can’t continue to happen because there is no, there’s no two parts to it. Right. And so that’s what we’re really trying to share here is that you hold so much power and influence if you know how to wield it. And I say that in a, that can sound bad, right? If somebody hears the word power and wield. It’s like we’re not saying that in a bad way. In, in a very constructive, positive, influential way.
You have that if you know how to use it. And this isn’t about controlling your child. I think we’ve said that four billion times maybe on this podcast. This is four billion and one. Yeah. You cannot control their behavior. What you’re doing in this case is you are removing your own contribution to the escalation that’s happening. Mm-hmm. It’s like that…
[00:11:00] Have you seen that little image where there’s a bunch of matchsticks and then the, um- Oh, I love that. Yeah. They’re all on fire, so there’s like… I’m gonna try and visually represent this with words. There’s like a row of matchsticks. They’re all lit. The matches are all lit, and then there’s one matchstick that is lowered down, and then the flame can’t continue, right?
Because that match has been lowered down and removed. It’s probably not a great… I don’t know if that was a good enough description, but- Well, I think we can have this- It’s the best I can do on a podcast. Um- The podcast of metaphors, right? There are a lot of metaphors here, you know, that we can… Uh, I think that is a really great one, right?
Because there’s a lot of fire happening right there, and then all of a sudden, one of those matchsticks, AKA people, decided to pull themselves away from it. Yeah. And it, it can’t spark all the rest of it, right? It’s like, oh, there’s nowhere to go. Yeah. So we hope it burns out a little bit, and it does, but for one
[00:12:00] thing is you’re preserving yourself right there, so… Yeah, and I think typically we think about this in terms of sort of an escalating situation, right? So my heightened energy meets your heightened energy, and then it just continues to escalate. I think there’s also situations where it’s a little bit less, it’s a little bit less like heightened energy, and it’s a little bit more potentially about manipulation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you can also use non-reactivity in a sort of a manipulative situation or a gaslighting situation, so this is super helpful for all of those, because if you’re matching the other person’s intensity- Then you’re just co-escalating with them instead of de-escalating. And what we always wanna try and do is de-escalate a situation, because getting everybody riled up and heightened up and… First of all, it
[00:13:00] just causes a bunch of distraction, ’cause now we’re not talking about the actual problem. But it also just leads to nothing good. Like, I can’t think of a single time with my son where it benefited both of us for me to come and match his level of energy and escalation and drama and chaos.
Can’t think of a single one. No, I can’t either. And I… Times two, right? ‘Cause I have two kids, and not once- Mm-hmm … did that ever help. And by the way, everyone walks away from those situations feeling awful. Mm-hmm. So it’s not like our kids are like, “Yeah, I got ’em.” Because I know sometimes parents think that, that, “Oh, I was manipulated again.
They got me.” Yep. But your kids know that they don’t want that either. It’s a struggle around the whole thing. So yeah. Yeah. And I think what I see sometimes in our community, in our little Petri dish of parents, is that the parents kind of
[00:14:00] feel like they have lost that parental authority, and that they are kind of just in reaction mode to whatever mood their child is in, whatever d- the latest demand is. And that is such a bad feeling, ’cause I lived in that- Mm … for a while, where really our entire home revolved around my son’s craziness. And I would walk on eggshells to not disturb him or not cause the whatever, and then I would be very reactive. And that’s just a terrible place to be as a parent, because you’re like, “Wait a minute, I am the parent.
I am the adult. I am the one paying the mortgage,” right? Like, all of those things. Yeah. So it’s not a fun place to be. But it’s also, when you’re non-reactive, that doesn’t mean that you are just laying down and becoming a carpet for people to walk over. Right. It’s actually the opposite. It’s like that is
[00:15:00] how you start to take back some of the authority, because- The only thing in your control is you. You’re the variable in that situation. Mm-hmm. And if you can take back control of you, then it puts you back in that place of, okay, I am back in control. And again, I don’t wanna say that in a bad way. Does that sound bad, like I’m in control? ‘Cause I’m not meaning it from, like, a controlling standpoint, but I need to be back in control of myself and also of my home, right?
Yeah. I think when I hear you say, “I’m back in control,” it’s more like, wow, I actually changed the priorities in my life. That’s a good way to put it. What is… Yeah. So what is the most important thing that I value, that my partner values? What are family values, right? Yeah. When you just are changing that hierarchy again, because I
[00:16:00] think that’s what happens when- things feel out of control and all of those. Like, I almost could see my little hierarchy of what I really cared about, what our family really cared about, just crumble to the ground. Yeah. And there went my self-confidence too. There went all the things personally in my own, things that I value so much in my own self- Yeah … were on the ground with the, all of that.
So I think it’s just recognizing what we feel is important in our lives personally, what we feel is valuable to our families and everyone else, and it’s just reestablishing that again. Yeah. A good example of this is we were moving, my son was in active addiction, and I called my dad to come help us pack up the house, right? Yeah. This is within, like, days of the pods showing up in the
[00:17:00] driveway and all that. And it’s a long day, right? When you’re packing a house. Oh, heck yeah. Those are long days. And emotional. And, and emotion- yes, I’m, like, so sad that we’re leaving the house ’cause my kids have been raised there. And so I had warned the kids ahead of time, “I need you on Saturday.
I’m gonna need you all day.” Like, I had done what I thought was a good job of preparing. And so that morning, of course, my son is still in bed by the time my dad gets here and we’re packing, so I have to go wake him up, and of course he’s, like, xanned out on, I don’t know. So he’s begrudgingly, like, packing a few boxes, but with zero effort, right?
Like, throwing a thing in here, and, like, on his phone the whole time, just not participating. Meanwhile, my other son is, like, actively helping out. My dad is there helping out, and my son, who’s in active addiction, said something about, “Well, are we gonna be done soon?” And this
[00:18:00] is, like, a half an hour after we’d started. We laugh, but- Like- We laugh now … are you joking me? Like- Yeah … this is an all-day thing, right? And I said- Yeah … “No, actually. No, we’re just getting started.” And so that started to escalate, right? Because his response, and what I could feel in my body, and this is something we really wanna talk about, is noticing in your body where does that reactivity start.
And for me, it starts, like, up high in my chest, and I start getting this, like… Mm-hmm. There’s, like, a butterfly convention happening in there, and they’re all just, like, going at the same time, and I’m just like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe this. I can’t believe he’s… What is he doing? And I can’t believe he’s thinking this.”
Yeah. And then I’m feeling embarrassed ’cause my dad is there seeing this drama, because of course he’s like, all the things. Could have won a- Yeah, yeah … award for it.
[00:19:00] And so I met his drama, and I just dove right straight into it, and, “I can’t believe you. This is not…” And the whole thing. So we did that for a few hours Hey, can I tell you about something that might be perfect for where you are right now? If you have ever felt like there’s just nothing left to try, or like you just don’t have the energy to keep going one more day, I want you to know that there is a place specifically for that. It’s called The Stream Community.
It’s a private online community for moms who are walking the same path you are with a child who’s facing substance use and mental health challenges. Inside, you’ll find other moms who don’t need the backstory explained. They just get it. You’ll also start learning practical skills that can shift the dynamic between you and your child because I know you really want to see change. You can try The
[00:20:00] Stream free for two weeks, and if you sign up now, you could be on a live support chat or a coaching call within 24 hours. You do not have to do this alone anymore, my friend. Head to hopestreamcommunity.org/try. We’ll get you set up on your free two-week trial, and I’ll see you there. Okay, let’s get back to the show
That was not effective In the middle of a move. In the middle of a move. In the middle of a move, and- That’s a lot … I’m trying to- That’s so much … keep everybody else sort of focused and not focused on him, and so he started in again. And something in me just switched, and I just sort of stood there and looked at him, and it was almost like I was just watching him almost as like a two-year-old threw a tantrum. Mm. And I just stood there and I watched him, and then I said, “Are you done
[00:21:00] now?” And he just kinda looked at me. Wow. And I said, “I’m not doing this. You can go. Just go.” Wow. Like, I’m not reacting. I’m not yelling or- Yeah … screaming anymore. I’m not crying, ’cause of course I’m over there in the closet like crying and being so sad about all of this.
And I just set it down, and I was just like, “I am not playing your game. Go. Just go.” Wow. “I’d rather not have you here.” And that was sort of a start of me learning, because then he just really calmed down immediately because there was no- Yeah … fuel, right? I’m not lighting that match. And so that was, for me, I think the start of me realizing the power of my response was a lot more than I thought it was, ’cause I saw the instant change in him. That’s crazy. Yeah. And he did leave. He left. He didn’t stay and pack, but it was better for all of us
[00:22:00] anyway. So I don’t know. That’s one example I can think of. That’s so good, and it’s interesting ’cause when you were asking me and I was kinda going through my mind, and when you just shared that, I remembered something that happened exactly with me.
And that was when my daughter … And we were at each other’s throats all the time, and this was, she was a few years into her addiction and the struggles. And for the way it shows up in me, very similar, the butterfly convention, but my heart pounds so … Feel like you could probably see my chest- Yes … in and out.
Like, it is so loud, and then of course, like the muffled sounds in my ear. I almost- I don’t know. I mean, I bet many of our listeners could understand what this feels like. I feel like I’m almost having an out-of-body experience. Like, the reaction- Yeah … is so physical and just,
[00:23:00] it’s almost frightening what your body does- Yes right? Yeah. And you do feel like, wow, like the rage or whatever it is just comes out, and that’s how I’ve always used to respond. With my daughter, there was a lot of rage and anger and throwing things. And anyway, I do remember we had this encounter where she was in her bathroom and we were yelling at each other, and it was about writing a thank you note to her grandparents.
Of course it was. Being real. Something very important. It was so important. Mattered so much to me, right? I mean, it was just crazy. And all sudden, she responded in this way that just caught me so off guard, and it was at that point that I looked at her and I thought, “What am I doing? I am engaging every time.” And I stopped, and I looked at her and I just said, “I’m walking away.”
[00:24:00] And I did walk away. And that was actually the beginning of my, start of my very uneven recovery, but it really was- Yeah … at that point, because it wasn’t long after that that things started to change in our house, and I realized that I was contributing in my own way. I was making things really miserable for myself because I was always engaging. I was one of those that engaged a lot, and the power of walking away and not engaging in that was, it felt great. Just- Yeah … it felt really… Well, can I reframe that? It didn’t feel good. Because it also felt like, oh my gosh, we’re here and I’m just walking away.
And at the time I did not know what T was or CRAFT or ITC, but- Right … even though it didn’t feel really good, I knew what I was doing was essential and that I had to do it to preserve myself and our relationship in some
[00:25:00] way, and it was a really good tool Yeah, it does. I, I know what you mean about it didn’t feel good. It’s like it didn’t feel good, but it did. It’s like when you get- Yeah … a massage when you have a really bad pain, and it’s like, oh my gosh, it hurts so good. But- Yeah. Yeah … it, it’s when you start to see those little shifts, I think that- Mm-hmm … yeah, it is hard to accept this is where we are. It’s hard to accept that I am standing with a child who is being so defiant and so entitled and so, like, really?
Yeah. It’s hard to accept, but if you can say, “Hey, this is where we are right now. Doesn’t mean we’re gonna be here forever, doesn’t mean I love it, and I don’t have to play this game. I don’t have to cater to every request that they make. I don’t have to-” Oh, yeah … I think is something that we really see, too, is, “Well, I need money for this.
Well, I don’t wanna eat that. Well, I don’t…” This, that, and the other thing, and it’s like, wait a minute, who’s the
[00:26:00] parent in this situation? Yeah. And we need to take some of that back. I think that’s really important. In a calm, measured, intentional, non-reactive way, and that requires you to interrupt some of these old patterns.
It’s like- Mm-hmm … when your computer, there’s a new operating system to download, and you’re like, “Nope, I’m just gonna keep using the old system. I’m just g- I am not gonna update my operating system. I’m just gonna keep going with the old one, even though my computer’s not really working very well.” And it’s like we wouldn’t do that.
You constantly are updating- Mm-hmm … your patterns and your responses. And I’m trying to think of who it was that asked, maybe it was in a session, I’m not sure, but asked us to sort of go back and do an inventory of the last couple of weeks or months and think, okay, what’s getting better? What’s changing? Is anything moving in the right direction? And if it’s not,
[00:27:00] what am I doing different? Because we can’t keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result, right? That’s the definition of absolute insanity. Right. So if you’re getting the same response from your child Whether that’s drama and crying and defiance and entitlement and all of that, and you aren’t updating your operating system, then it’s no surprise that you’re getting the same response.
So we kind of have to go back to, what am I doing because I am the only one that I have control over. So- That’s right … that, a- and really part of that is starting to recognize those physical symptoms, because our body gets there first. Mm-hmm. Our body starts to send those signals that, “Oh my gosh, I’m gonna react to this,” instead of pause and respond.
And so really doing an inventory in your body. I agree with you, like it’s the butterfly convention, then the heart is pounding, and then it is like you
[00:28:00] kind of disassociate in your brain. Like you have- Mm-hmm … this little out-of-body experience, and it’s like I’m almost watching myself Like, she’s crazy. I know.
I know. Right? And it’s funny, Brenda, I was thinking, wow, if I could go back to that self 10 years ago when I was having that reaction, and I, now the tools that we have, like having coaches, right, are so amazing. I’m imagining you in my hallway of my old house saying, “Keep going, Cathy. Like, keep walking back.”
Mm-hmm. You’ve just started something really good. You’ve just recognized something so important, right? Because that probably would’ve helped that fear of this isn’t feeling right, and is this right, and all of that. But yeah, I mean, i- it is a really strange sensation, and also a necessary one. When you talked about the inventory of what’s going on in the last six months, what’s changing as your child
[00:29:00] changed, I think it’s very rare that we see our child change on their own. I mean, from my experience, and I don’t have a lot of experience, I’m not a therapist, I haven’t been in everyone’s homes, but talking to all of these parents, what I do see and what I’ve heard from people telling us is that when they started to change, that’s when change happened with their kiddo. Yep. And so I think that’s that inventory of looking at your kid is like, is anything happening here?
So maybe… I love that analogy with the changing and updating your software. It’s so good. Yeah. It, it is- Yeah … it’s critical. I mean, we laugh about it when we think about our computers. Like, I’m not running the same operating system I was- … three years ago. So I think that can be a good reminder. And also just practicing this, because the non-reactivity part of it doesn’t just apply to our interactions with our kids. Mm.
[00:30:00] Literally, like, you’re in traffic and somebody cuts you off, are you immediately like, “Ugh,” you know, and swearing and whatever. It’s like you can practice this in those situations to say, “Hmm, I notice that person just cut me off. Do I need to have some big response to it? Do I need to activate my nervous system because this person just happened to, like, veer into my lane?”
So you can practice on these little, like, low stakes, non-related- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … situations, because you’ll notice the same exact physical symptoms, right? The butterfly convention or… And it might happen faster, it might happen slower. But when you start it, start to notice in your body, and I know that sounds weird, like we’re asking you to- Slow down, notice what’s going on in your body, because then it’s going to allow you to strategically respond to the
[00:31:00] situation. I think that’s the key point I wanna make- Yeah … is without that self-awareness, without doing a quick inventory, like the handwritten note to the grandparents, is that really the thing I need to be focused on right now? Because I guarantee you, you could spend for an hour with your child on the handwritten note to the grandparents, which guess what?
For that hour, you’re not thinking about the Kratom that they’re using or the fifth of vodka that’s hidden underneath their mattress, right? It’s like- Yeah … that is a perfect distraction, and they love it. It’s like, “Oh, yes, I can get my mom sidetracked on the thank you note- Ugh … for hours.” Perfect. Our kids are so smart.
Whereas if you’re like, “It would be really lovely if you wrote your grandparents a handwritten note. That’s up to you whether you do it or not. Let’s talk about how are you gonna manage going to that party this weekend and not drink, because since
[00:32:00] you came home from treatment, you decided that you wanna try and not drink,” right? Like, that’s the conversation you wanna be having. Yeah. Not about the handwritten card, because that is a complete distraction, and no one’s gonna die if they don’t get a handwritten card. That would be my opinion. I think that’s a fair and true opinion as well. Yes. I know it feels important, and this is something that I think if you’re newer in the experience of having your child struggle, things like handwritten thank you notes to grandparents, dinner, family dinner at the table five nights a week, showing up for your brother’s basketball game, all of those kinds of things that we hold so dear as a good family does these things, those things can really derail us from focusing on what truly matters.
Because I guarantee you, you’re gonna be able to have family dinner again at some point in your life. It’s not gonna disappear- Yeah … forever.
[00:33:00] And so it can be really hard to let those things go, because it’s like, “Well, wait a minute. I worked so hard,” right? My whole parenting career has been around creating a, if you’re not watching on video-
I’m using air quotes, “a good family,” and good families have dinner together, and good families support each other at their sport games, and good families write handwritten thank you notes to the grandparents. And we can get really fixated on those things, and I do realize this is a bit of a tangent from the non-reactivity.
However, I think it’s really important, because if we are fixated on those things, you will be more likely to be reactive about them. Yeah. Whereas if you can just let it go and trust that down the road things can come back and you can have all of those things, it will allow you to
[00:34:00] not pour fuel on the fire. I think that’s the best kind of analogy we can make, kind of going back to the matches, are every time we are reactive and we jump in, we cater to their requests, their demands- Mm-hmm … all of those things, that reactivity just keeps the fire going. We’re like stoking it, and stoking it, and stoking it. Yeah.
And when you can step back and observe, kind of like what I did when Enzo was doing his thing with the packing, step back, and when I really looked at it, I’m like, oh my gosh, my 16-year-old, I guess he was 17 at the time, he’s acting like a two-year-old. Right. He is literally throwing a temper tantrum. And so getting a little bit of that distance, I think, can be super helpful.
But anyway- Yeah … I do realize that was a bit of a tangent. That’s okay. It wouldn’t be a podcast with us- It wouldn’t … without us going on a tangent or two. It wouldn’t be a Cathy
[00:35:00] episode without a good tangent. But yeah, I love all that you said, and I think, again, go back to yourself, go back to what you value within yourself, and you might not be focusing on the good, quote, “good family,” what good families do and/or at least perfect families.
I would like to substitute that word. You might be focusing on their use or what your kid is doing just overall, right? Yeah. Go back, look into yourself, say, “What’s going on with me right now? What am I valuing?” And everything else, because you’re right, the disrespect and all those things that come with when we focus on our kids, I can probably guarantee that 99% of our moms are like, “I didn’t raise my kid.
I don’t want my kid to be disrespectful. I don’t want all of that.” Take away everything, right? The substances, all of the issues. Those aren’t excuses. Yes, they’re struggling, for sure, but there are things that we can
[00:36:00] do to help disengage ourselves from that, and in a way, this is how we address the disrespect and all these other things that are going on, the gaslighting.
For sure. And when you think just about a dynamic between two people, the person who is more in control of themselves and their emotions, and they’re steady and calm, that is the person who’s gonna be more effective in that conversation, right? Mm-hmm. Versus the person who is hysterical, demanding, gaslighting, throwing around all of their emotions.
Like, that person is not the person who’s gonna be effective unless they get matched with somebody who’s gonna do that with them. Right. And if you’re gonna do that with them and join them in that, it’s just gonna end up to be a tangle, and they- Yeah … are usually going to win. They’re gonna come out ahead, because they are persistent. They have more
[00:37:00] energy than we do usually. And in that situation, you are more likely to be the one who says, “Fine.” Right? Right. So taking those few minutes to inventory your body, give yourself what you need. I love breathing. I think breathing, I really– Like, if I could go back and redo my career, I think I would, like, go and learn breathwork, because it is so, so powerful at regulating your system.
And so it almost seems too simple to be effective, but if you haven’t tried it, I promise you, it is incredibly effective. So if you feel the butterfly convention, the heart pounding, the disassociation, sort of third– like, looking at this as out of body, just t- step back and do some deep breathing. And the– if you can do the longer
[00:38:00] exhale Box breathing, whatever it is that you can do. You can look up a million of them on YouTube. That will instantly start to regulate your nervous system, and then you can decide what to do. You may need to address something in that moment. It may be one of those moments that you cannot delay, but you can do it from a place of calm, confidence, with your values intact, like you said.
Mm-hmm. Acting from that place of, “Okay, I am doing this because I value peace in my home, safety, honesty,” whatever it is, and your response matches that versus just reacting out of fear and out of anger and frustration and exhaustion. And then that starts to help you co-regulate with your child, and they will notice it when you- Oh, for sure switch that operating system. They’re gonna be like, “Wait,
[00:39:00] wait. What? Where’s that old operating system? I liked that one because it got us all tangled up in drama.” And you’ll be like, “Oh, no, I actually did the update last night.” So new mom, new dad. New mom. Okay to say that, right? New mom. Yes. New mom. I got the newest version.
I’m all good, thank you very much. Mm. Now we’re gonna have to come up with a name for that update. I know. But it’s true. It’s like- It is … when we change how we operate, they notice- Yeah … and they may not say anything, but inside they’re like, “Wait a minute. I’m not getting the same thing that I used to get.”
Yeah. “What’s going on here?” Right? Yeah. Gosh, it feels so good. And I know I’ve shared this story when I had to t- say that when my daughter called, she was in recovery and she was really upset. And by that time, I’ve had a lot of years of
[00:40:00] experience of using this calm approach, so it came, but even those words coming out of my mouth didn’t feel real at first.
And I did give her some resources. It’s not like I left her high and dry- Right … ’cause I had something. I said, “Hey, maybe a call to your sponsor and your therapist might be helpful right now. I have to get off the phone,” and I hung up. And boy, she noticed and I noticed and it felt so good. It was just like everything calmed down.
And we did connect later on when it was- Mm … and nothing was even said about that, but it was just like, “Hey, we’ll chat later when this is going on.” Anyway, it really is so helpful, and it just feels so good to have that update. Yes. Everything runs so much better. All the glitches are worked out a little bit better.
The glitches are gone. The… You’re not losing contacts, all that other stuff. Exactly. And I think the reason why we wanna mention, like, how to get to this place of non-reactivity is
[00:41:00] because it’s not something that you can just sort of willpower your way into. It’s not like you can not do anything different and then some situation comes up and you’re like, “Okay, now is the time to turn on my non-reactivity mode.”
Like, that doesn’t work. It has to be a rewiring of your whole system so that you can recognize that. And maybe you know there’s a situation that comes up every time the kids come back from their dad’s house, they are out of whack. Or every time they come back- Yeah … from their mom’s house, they’re out of whack.
So you know that there’s gonna be some time when you’re gonna need to put this into action. But it’s not like I’m just gonna white-knuckle my way through being non-reactive and I’m just gonna, like, grit my teeth and I’m gonna… It needs to be a whole system change and a rewiring. So that, I think, is just important to say because what we- Yeah don’t want is to have you sort of, like, try to go in and
[00:42:00] out of non-reactivity mode. It’s too hard. Like, it- you just can’t- Yeah … your nervous system just can’t do that. So it’s just about dialing it in, being really aware. It’s that self-awareness. I cannot overstate how important that is to understand yourself.
And, like, we talk a lot about the pause button and using that when you feel the butterfly convention convening. You’re like, “Wait a minute. I’ve got to use the pause button right now because this tells me I’m going to go into reactivity mode.” So. Yeah. Um, there’s a couple of questions that I think are…
that we can kind of ask ourselves, and it’s both about ourselves and about our child or whatever’s going on. This obviously works with partners as well. But if you find yourself to be really triggered by something that’s going on with your child, and usually your reactivity is triggered
[00:43:00] by something that’s happened We would really encourage you to ask yourself, “Is this actually true? Is this actually happening right now?” Mm-hmm. “Or am I projecting something because it happened last time, or I think it’s probably going to happen again?” A lot of times we are making assumptions about things that will probably never happen, right? We can play that movie forward- Right … six ways to Sunday. So trying to stay in the moment and really asking that question, like, “Okay, we’re here right now.
Is this really true? Am I making up a story about what I think is happening? Am I going back to the past and bringing the past forward?” It’s just so important to stay in the
[00:44:00] moment, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. And also, just asking this question, let’s be honest with ourselves, too, if this requires way more inner work, right?
Does this mean that yourself needs more therapy on this? Because if you find that you’re constantly asking yourself and believing that, “Is this true? Am I making this up?” And you’re constantly going there because of maybe not your kid’s past, it’s your own past that’s coming into it all the time, then that’s the time to say, “Wow, something is going on here,” and that updating of that system is gonna work a lot better when you start doing your own work in there.
And I know that can be really scary, but just that, I think it just needs to be said. 100%. Yeah. There’s- Mm-hmm … there’s a lot of work to do, and I think you have to do it at the right moment. Yeah. Yeah. It may be that right now, really, what’s more
[00:45:00] important is you acknowledge, “I’ve got some work to do on myself-” But right now I only have the bandwidth to do one thing, and I really need to help my child accept help or whatever it is.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I think that’s a really good point. And then the other question that we would encourage you to ask is kind of about your own self and your own body, because what we don’t want is to ignore a threat to our body that is real. Yeah. And we know also, based on all of our interactions with members and parents and coaching and all of that, is that sometimes you actually are in danger, right?
Sometimes safety is an issue, and we never want you to try and push that down, ignore it. So if the butterflies are convening, your, your heart is pounding, your brain is offline, it may be because you actually are unsafe. And if that’s the case, we want you to get help,
[00:46:00] right? Call your local crisis line. Right. Call the police if you need to. Call somebody to come try and deescalate that situation, because that is real, and we always wanna make sure and acknowledge that. There’s gonna be other times where you’re just highly uncomfortable because there’s conflict, and a lot of people just don’t like conflict.
So try and suss that out. If it’s just that it’s super uncomfortable and you have to say the thing that you don’t wanna say, or do, hold the boundary you don’t wanna hold, or whatever it is, that’s okay. You can do that, and you’re gonna be fine. If it is the former, then absolutely call in the help. So just a, a word on safety there, ’cause I think that’s super important.
Yeah. It’s so typical for us to normalize it, right? Especially if you’ve been in it a long time. Yeah. Um, normalize all that’s going on around safety and everything. So agree. Yeah. So okay, just to
[00:47:00] sort of wrap up the practical things that you can do when you notice you’re going into reactivity mode, breathe, right?
Pause and breathe. It’s always a good one. I think it was Dina on a episode, we’ll put a link to it, who has a go-to phrase, which was, “I love you too much to allow this to be part of our relationship. I’m gonna step away, and we can pick this up later.” And I think that is a brilliant line. Like, memorize it. Good. Tattoo it on your forearm. Whatever you need to do.
Get it down because it’s a good one It is a good one, and it’s so true. I’ve actually, I’ve never used that with my kids, but I’ve, like, said it out loud to myself just because it is definitely worth memorizing that line. It’s so true. I wish I had that line so long ago. It’s so, so good. Right? I so wish I would’ve had that line- Yeah because I didn’t have a line. So again- … if you wanna
[00:48:00] write it down- Yeah … use your child’s name, Johnny, I love you too much to allow this, and this meaning drama and chaos and yelling and disrespectful language and demands and all that. I love you too much to allow this to be part of our relationship. I’m gonna step away, and we can come back to this another time.
Brilliant. So think about that de-escalation so that you’re not matching their energy. You’re not engaging. You are not responding to that. And I think it’s also helpful, at least to me it is, I kind of have to visualize myself doing something- Mm-hmm … so that when that time comes, I already have a picture of what that looks like.
Mm-hmm. So if I know that my kiddo comes home every Thursday night after work, and he hates the manager that’s working on Thursdays, and he always has a beer on his way home, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I realize that Thursday night
[00:49:00] there’s always drama, I’m gonna visualize myself calmly being non-reactive to that. Maybe I make myself unavailable. I’m out for a walk. I’m out to coffee with my girlfriend, or maybe I’m just, like, validating that. Wow, that really sucks to have a boss that you don’t like. And then you move on. But I think that visuala- visualization is important, just to see yourself- Yeah. Mm-hmm … doing that thing that you don’t typically do can really sort of start that, the operating system update.
I don’t know. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. No, visualization helps you already embody those feelings, right? And so then they’re not feeling so new when you go to them later, right? So I love that. I’m a huge fan of role playing. I know my husband and I did a ton of that, and f- we still do sometimes on different things. It’s like, okay, if this is the reaction, how are we gonna respond?
[00:50:00] It’s so, so helpful to have that self-visualization. I love that you do that. That’s a great tip. Yeah. Yeah. It’s helpful. And as always, we would be failing you if we didn’t say that there are gonna be times where this completely bombs, and- Mm-hmm
you light the match, right? You light the match- … and you dig in. I know. Your operating system is like DOS days. Like, you’re… It just all goes to hell in a handbasket. And afterwards you’re like, “Whoa, what just happened? I totally engaged when I didn’t want to. I fought about the handwritten thank you card.
Like, I did all the things that I didn’t want to do.” It’s going to happen. Yeah. It’s okay. It’s okay. You’re human. I, those are teachable moments, right? Totally. Those to me are always teachable moments. Like, okay, because no one’s gonna be perfect on this, and it
[00:51:00] takes a lot of practice. And give yourself so much grace when that happens. It’s gonna happen. And by the way, we love the do-overs. You can always go back to your kiddo. Our favorite thing in the world, I know Dina and I have talked about that. You and, the three of us have talked about it a lot of it’s always so great to go back to your kid and say, “I really don’t like the way that I handled that back there.”
Yeah. And so just know that there’s always that do-over, but give yourself a lot of grace. See what it’s teaching you, and there’s gonna be multiple times you’re gonna be able to do this again. I promise you, you’ll get another chance. You will get another opportunity. Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. I think we try to give you practical tools that you can use that will help you start to feel a little bit more in control- Yeah quickly, right? This is not something you need a PhD for. It’s not something that you need to go to school for. It is truly
[00:52:00] about that acceptance of where you are. Okay, this is where our family is right now. Because until you get there, you cannot make change. You can’t move from a place that you won’t admit that you are.
Mm-hmm. So accept where you are, and know that you get to change it. And really have that awareness. If you do nothing else, just, like, run an experiment for the next week to say, “The only thing I’m gonna do differently is I’m gonna start s- doing a body scan. How am I feeling? What is coming up?” Maybe you don’t change your response at all for the first week.
You’re just doing a little bit of research on your own body. “Oh, I notice that whatever happens when…” And then you can say from there, “Okay, so if that’s what happens when I start to feel like I’m gonna be reactive, what’s my next step gonna be? I’m gonna pause. I’m
[00:53:00] gonna breathe. I’m gonna go for a walk. I’m gonna drink water,” whatever it is. And I think that can feel really empowering when- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm … you start to recognize, oh, this is what they’re talking about when they say, “Do the work.” This is the work- … friend. This is it. This is the work. We’re giving it in a- This is what we’re talking about … we’re giving it in a nice wrapped present.
All you have to do is open it up and use it. This is the work. It really, it really matters to do it, and it’s these small little changes that are, really are impactful. Yes. That’s why we dedicate an hour to the podcast to talk about it. They’re impactful- Yes … and that’s why it’s important enough that we talk about it here.
So- Yeah … we hope you use it, yeah. Awesome. Okay, Miss Cathy. Thank you for hopping on with me. Yeah. And I’ll- Always so fun … yeah, I’ll see you next time. Sounds good. Bye, Brenda. Bye.
[00:54:00] Okay, my friend, I am so glad that you are here with me today. Do you want the resources from this episode? If you do, head to hopestreamcommunity.org, click Podcast, and you will find this episode, along with 300 or so others, and every link that we mention. And if you haven’t tried it yet, we offer a free two-week trial of our online community for moms, The Stream.
No credit card needed, no commitment, just go to hopestreamcommunity.org/try, and we can get you set up with a free two-week membership. And if this is your first time here or if this whole approach feels new and uncomfortable, that is normal. You can grab a free e-book I wrote called Worried Sick. It will help you start seeing new ways to respond to your child
[00:55:00] and find new ways to approach this whole situation that feels very confusing. You can find that at hopestreamcommunity.org/worried. You, my friend, are an elite level parent. You are doing an incredible job. You do things most parents never have to do, and I am so honored to be walking this path with you. Take ridiculously good care of yourself, and I will meet you right back here next week.
