How Parents Can Transcend Shame – and Help Their Kids Do the Same, with Patrick Hawkins

Brenda Zane: 00;00;00;11 Patrick So these appearances that make it look like they don’t care about anything isn’t really what’s going on. The use of substances becomes paramount to everything else in their. To these appearances that make it look like they don’t care about anything isn’t really what’s going on. The use of substances becomes paramount to everything else in their life. They don’t stop caring about everything else because the sufferer would really not suffer so badly if they did stop caring because they wouldn’t be exposed to the guilt and the remorse and the shame and stuff like that of their behaviors because it wouldn’t bother them. The problem is, is that they do still care about all of those things and they can’t really understand why it looks like they don’t. 00;00;51;11 Brenda You’re listening to HopeStream. The place for those parenting teens and young adults who are misusing drugs and alcohol in a treatment program or working their way toward recovery. It’s your private space to learn and to gain encouragement and understanding from me. Your host friend is saying I’m fellow parent to a child who struggled. And I’m so glad you’re here to learn more about all the resources available to you besides a podcast. Please head over to HopeStreamCommunity. org. I have a fantastic episode for you today. And before we jump into things with Patrick Hawkins, I want to check in and share just a couple of things with you. The first is a reminder that it is okay to take a break from learning, listening, reading, thinking about addiction and substance use and mental health, all the things that likely occupy your brain space. You may even want to try something that some of our members in extreme community have done, which is to take a very specific and timed break like mark off two weeks in your calendar as your vacation from all of this. And trust me, it will all be there when you go back. You’ll just be able to catch up on a couple of new episodes here. And all your books will still be there. It actually can be really, really helpful. And it’s really important for a couple of reasons. One is that it is just so heavy and you can start to lose sight of other less taxing things in life, things that bring you joy. It’s also important because ideas and concepts from other places in the world and other topics, other subjects can often apply to what you’re going through. 00;02;39;23 Brenda So expanding your listening and reading and your socializing, it might actually bring forth an answer or an idea or resource that you’ve been looking for. So feel free to give yourself a break. The other thing I want to share and then I promise we’ll dive in, is a reminder that your child who is struggling or who is in a treatment program right now, or even if they are making a new life in recovery, they’re much more than their diagnoses or the labels that have been put on them. Depending on how long you have been at this, your child might like mine, have a file several inches thick, various tests and results and diagnoses, which isn’t bad. It’s actually really helpful if you get those things as you’re looking for help. But with all of that information that you have, you might also lose sight of the parts of them that have nothing to do with what they have or what they, quote unquote, are. I say this from experience, and so when you have the chance, try asking your child about their dreams or their goals, what kind of music they like right now, why they like it, or whatever you can find to tap into with them that is completely unrelated to their stuff. I think this is so important because we all know that we ourselves have diverse parts and when someone only sees or scrutinizes is one of those parts, especially if it’s one that we have a hard time with, it feels dismissive and shortsighted. And then the final thing I’ll say is that you are here for a reason today. You are the kind of person who shows up, Take responsibility. You are willing to examine your own actions and thoughts, beliefs. And that is commendable for so many reasons. It means you’re not willing to acquiesce to the notion that your child is somehow broken or bad, or a failure or whatever the world wants to tell you about them because you know them and you know that the kind of funny, generous, sensitive, brilliant young person that you know, is still in there and I am here to validate that regardless of what is showing up in front of you, they’re still 00;05;07;15 Brenda in there. They may not be willing to expose their vulnerable and hurting parts to you right now, but they are still in there. And that leads me to Patrick Hawkins and conversation we had recently around shame and family dynamics when a child is struggling. Patrick is the founder of Triple Divide Lodge in Marion, Montana, which is unique in that it is a 90 day program that combines residential treatment and adventure therapy for guys who are aged 14 to 19. They help young men struggling with substance use disorders and co-occurring issues. Patrick is a licensed addictions counselor with over 25 years of experience. During his career, he’s worked with thousands of young men in primary treatment. He has been dedicated to working with adolescents and young adults since 1995, and he is considered a leader in treating young men, especially in an outdoor and experiential type setting. I reached out to Patrick because I wanted to dig into the topic of shame, both in the kids who are wrestling with mental health and substances, but also for the families of those kids. You’ll hear how shame and guilt become a toxic cycle in a person’s life and how, as parents we can become an obstacle if we are not willing to step in and do our own work as part of healing the whole family. It is a goldmine of a conversation, so I’ll let you listen in. This is me and Patrick Hawkins of Triple Divide Latch. Enjoy. 00;06;55;09 Brenda Patrick Hawkins, thank you so much for making time to join me today on Hope Stream. I’m so looking forward to this conversation. I think you’re just a vault. So when I first contacted you, I said, Let’s talk about shame, which we are going to do, because it is a really big topic. But I know that you have I mean, I was just reading about you when I was doing my research that you have worked with over 5000 young men. That is astounding. And just to give people some grounding kind of in what you do and who you are and who you work with, why don’t you give us the One-On-One of Patrick and then also of Triple Divide Lodge, and then we’re going to dive into some of the good stuff. 00;07;34;24 Patrick Of course. So, yeah. Patrick Hawkins I’m currently the executive director and founder of Triple Divide Lodge here in Northwest Montana. I have been working in substance use treatment with adolescents since 1995. I really believe that it’s kind of a calling for me. It’s something that I’ve been very passionate about early in my life. And yeah, I don’t know where that 5000 number came from, but it’s probably somewhere in there in the interactions that I’ve had throughout the course of my career with a lot of a lot of particularly young men. I had a stint for about a year where I also worked with with young women, but found really, especially at that time in my life, that I was really just kind of resonated well with young men. Interestingly enough, I think since I had a daughter, I see how I can really resonate with young women as well. And I think my daughters really expose me to a side of me that I know of there or helped develop inside of me that I that I didn’t know was there. So I’ve been facilitating not only working with young men in residential, I’ve also been able to guide probably all over. I don’t know, I’ve been over a thousand days in the backcountry guiding young men in this recovery journey as part of the process. And so it’s been exposed to some of the wilderness up here and kind of what that looks like, but very fortunate to have worked in settings that really allowed me to use my gifts and talent and really work with some really great people, too. 00;09;08;20 Brenda So nice. Nice. So when I reached out, I really had in mind this topic of shame because I see, you know, I’m I’m sort of steeped in this world of, you know, teens and young adults and substance use all day, every day. And what I see a lot are parents who are trying to understand the behavior of their child who’s often at home. Right. Causing like all kinds of craziness at home. And we talk about shame and they kind of look at me like, what are you talking about? They don’t they’re mad, they’re angry, they’re defiant. They’re, you know, F-you and punching holes in the wall. And so shame is kind of this like, what are you talking about? 00;09;52;11 Patrick Are you talking about the identified patient or the families? 00;09;55;20 Brenda Well, that is a perfect question, because it’s both. Right. I think we obviously as parents, because it’s such a stigmatized, you know, issue, we feel shame, but I think so. Let’s talk about that as well. But it’s it’s both. It’s really looking at a young person who might be presenting as something that does not look or resemble any kind of shame at all. But I know that that’s going on underneath only because I have the the hindsight and the blessing of having my son alive to have some of these conversations with him. So maybe this is a launching point. Take us through what you see and and what this topic kind of brings up for you. 00;10;43;16 Patrick Well, I think that really what it brings up is that when we’re talking about substance use disorders and or addiction, as we still will call it, when we’re talking about substance use disorders, what we’re talking about is a condition which the manifestation of the symptomology of it has these behavioral presentations and they have these behavioral presentations that have a very strong moral connection, because what we’re talking about are behaviors such as dishonesty, such as cheating, such as lying, such as stealing, such as a presentation of just not caring. And what we have here is this vision of of a young man or a young woman that just seems to not care anymore. And the problem is, is that the way the disease manifests in the condition manifest is that the sufferer is unable to really recognize the underlying emotional impact, especially in guilt and things like that, of their behaviors. And I think Dr. Vernon Johnson, his book I’ll for Tomorrow, which is all book, but I think it’s still very pertinent and that he talks about that when the sufferer experiences an episode of loss of control in which it violates their values or morals, what happens is that spontaneous rationalizations arise and these spontaneous rationalizations arise and protect the suffer from being able to identify what took place. And so what happens is that leads to an unidentified and unresolved feelings that continue to remain unidentified. And they pile up over time, which creates a growing chronic emotional distress. And that chronic emotional distress is used by the software that to help perpetuate the use of these substances and stuff like that. So what we have is a condition that becomes kind of self-perpetuating in that the used to call the feelings that the behaviors due to their use create it and to the sufferer using still appears to be the solution when in fact it is now become the problem. 00;13;02;11 Patrick And so it leads to this presentation of somebody that doesn’t care, that doesn’t understand. And yet underneath that is an incredible amount of chronic emotional distress that is unrecognized by the software. And so what I’ve come to recognize is that we come from a place early in the process of recovery that every young man, every client, every person of concern and anticipation, whatever we want to call them, is coming to us with a high degree of emotional distress that they are unable to recognize that they cannot resolve on their own. That leads to a lot of other defensive postures that inevitably just continues going and being able to recognize that that’s what’s going on. Then we can start to separate the defensive presentations from that underlying distress and start learning to go after that to see that we have. And I really like to come from that place that that’s what’s going on initially, because when we can look at them as being an individual that’s suffering and that is in this condition, then we can start to humanize them and start to separate the behaviors from the individual. 00;14;09;23 Brenda Right. So what I think is really important first to highlight is what you said about the symptomology of this is so different than if your child had cancer or, you know, diabetes or one of these other diseases that wouldn’t present with the lying and the stealing and the sneaking out and the, you know, destructive behavior. So it does look like a moral issue. Which is so confusing as a parent, you’re looking at this child like, what? What is going on with this person? You know, because it would it looks like from the parents point of view, at least from my point of view, was like this alien just took over my child’s body. Like, I don’t know who this person is anymore because it does happen, or at least it can happen quickly and very dramatically. And you’re just standing there trying to figure out what’s going on. So I think that’s really important. And then they’re in such emotional distress and so they get trapped in this cycle. And are they just really they’re just really not aware. And I’m sure this varies. Obviously, there is no absolute it’s But are they just really not aware that that is what’s going on as they’re creating this internal cycle of the shame and the guilt? And so the best way out of that is to go back and use again. So when they arrive with you or they are they sort of unaware of that? Or how do you start to figure out where where are they in this kind of madness cycle of madness? 00;15;38;28 Patrick They are unaware of it because oftentimes they continue to see using it as a solution, which it was to something in their life early on in the process. Right? It was a solution to something right away, but it eventually became the problem. But they are really unaware of it because that idea of these spontaneous rationalizations and this incredible defense mechanism system that’s been created with them prevents them from being able to recognize that emotional distress with any longevity or with any impact, to be able to create motivation for them to change this. There is there’s a subconscious that experience that something’s going on, that something’s not right, that something’s wrong, whatever, however you want to describe it. But it’s also so bad that they don’t necessarily want to touch it. And drugs are the solution. 00;16;29;26 Brenda Well, they work. They work so well. 00;16;32;04 Patrick They work very well. 00;16;33;07 Brenda Until they don’t. 00;16;34;08 Patrick Right. And so so they don’t really have much of an awareness of it when they come to when they come to us. Even sometimes a lot of guys that have been in a variety of different settings being treated for a variety of conditions never really get this idea that the problem really is addiction. And so a lot of times when guys find out that it is addiction, they start to really actually start to have a degree of hope because it does manifest in so many other ways. What happens is that it leaves I see a lot of guys come to us sometimes that have left other professionals puzzled as to what the problem is. And when they find out that it’s simply, you know, a substance use disorder and that explains their behaviors, and we give them the understanding, the education around how that’s manifesting strong enough so that then they can start to recognize it and have an explanation because it’s an excuse for their behaviors, but it helps explain their behaviors to them, and then they can start to get a handle on it, because it doesn’t seem so overwhelming to. 00;17;35;12 Brenda So if they’re starting to recognize what is going on and why these things are happening in their lives, does that start to get at the shame, peace and in that element of it to say, because what I know with my son, I’ll just give you an example of of sort of where this how this played out was. And then we’re going to get into the family thing because it’s like, yeah, he is, he would see me or he would come home and I would be crying, yelling, screaming, shaming him. What? Can’t you see what you’re doing to your mom, Casey? What you’re doing to your grandma, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, the whole thing. You’re smarter than this, you’re better, you know, all of these things. And his response is exactly what you just said is, Wow, I don’t want to feel this. The only way I know how not to feel. This is to go numb out with Xanax and fentanyl and all of those things. And so but at the same time, he was ashamed of how he was handling things, but he didn’t know any other way because he didn’t have any tools, which is a whole nother conversation that we could have. 00;18;42;02 Patrick Right. 00;18;42;25 Brenda So. So that’s where I see that intersection often is as parents, we don’t know that we’re sort of contributing to this cycle that’s going on inside of them because we don’t really understand what’s going on. 00;18;58;14 Patrick Well, how could you? Because it doesn’t appear that they really care. And lots of times the way we help guys really understand the way this thing is playing out is these appearances that make it look like they don’t care about anything isn’t really what’s going on. The problem is that when they use substances, the use of substances becomes paramount to everything else in their life. And although it looks like they don’t care, the reality is, is that drugs become supersede the value or the importance of everything else in their life. And the problem is, is they don’t stop caring about everything else because the sufferer would really not suffer so badly if they did stop caring because they wouldn’t be exposed to the guilt and the remorse and the shame and stuff like that of their behaviors because it wouldn’t bother them. The problem is, is that they do still care about all those things and they can’t really understand why it looks like they don’t. 00;19;58;16 Brenda Right. There’s this emotional friction that’s that’s just like I can just see it sort of grinding away, but especially on a young brain, Right. If you’ve got a 14, 15, 16 year old, they don’t necessarily have all the tools that they need to be able to sort that out. 00;20;16;26 Patrick And that’s true. But it’s also across the age spectrum, really. I mean, we can look at adolescents, young adults or full blown adults, and these things are there’s a lot of similarities in the way these things play out. But one of the things I think in going back to kind of what you said is, well, when they initiate, when that condition is initiated in an earlier stage in life, they don’t have the brain development and they don’t have the coping skills to prevent it from it. Excel are waiting for the condition to accelerate as quickly as it does with younger people. And so we see the progression of the disease really accelerate more rapidly in younger people than we do. If people are able to resist the initiation of substance use later on in their life. 00;20;58;16 Brenda So back to the family. I’m thinking if a parent is listening and they’re like, oh, the little alarm bells are going off, like, I see this, I see some of this dynamic playing out in my house. What are the things that parents either maybe absolutely should or absolutely shouldn’t do for themselves? Like the thing that they can control is themselves. Are there any things that you would want to share to a parent who’s listening? 00;21;27;20 Patrick The first and foremost is to accept the fact that substances are the problem. There is still a very powerful stigma in our culture around the idea of addiction, substance use disorders, alcoholism, whatever we want to call it. And so the first thing is to really look at how am I judging or what are my prejudices around the notion of substance use disorders around addiction to obviously use the word addiction, because we have them. And what we’re seeing is this condition of addiction playing out. And one of the things that happens lots of times is that addiction is looked at as a secondary condition, that if we treat something else, then that will get better. But what we have here and what we talk about is treating a co-occurring issues, which means that they may have depression, they may have ADHD, they may have bipolar, and they probably all are experiencing some trauma in some way and they have a substance use disorder. And so the notion that if we treat this other condition, this will get better has to really be evaluated and looked at, because what oftentimes drives that is a stigma associated with the disease of addiction. And of course, it has one. When we look at the way that it’s manifesting in their life in these areas that have a strong moral connection. And what and so really taking a look at that, am I willing to accept the fact that my son may be an addict? Right. And getting past that and we spend a lot of time with families looking into that, Where are you with this? Because a lot of times, especially in the way our program is, our program is laid out, is that our clients are typically coming, done a pretty good job of coming to grips with that by the time we involve the families in our family program. 00;23;19;24 Patrick And so if families can get past that sooner, then they’re already going to be ahead lots of times for their families. And so really coming to grips with that part of it and recognizing them is as its own standalone issue. And then we can start to look at, okay, kind of some of the primary goals of parenting is kind of how I frame it. What are those primary goals of parenting is to instill values and morals into our offspring, and they’re violating all of them. Yes. And so but so much of what’s going on has the family questioning how they’re doing as a parent. 00;23;56;05 Brenda 100%. 00;23;57;10 Patrick Subconsciously questioning and judging and they’re judging themselves as doing badly as a parent. And that’s lots of times really unrecognized as well. And so to be able to start to separate this is not about me as a parent, because the more I make it about how I’m doing as a parent, subconsciously, especially unrecognized, then the more I’m going to push, the more I’m going to try to control, the more I’m going to judge, the more emotionally I’m being driven. I’m being driven by unrecognized and unresolved shame of my own. 00;24;30;21 Brenda Yes, well, your motivation for everything that you do becomes about I have to get this fixed so that I feel okay, so that I feel like I’m a good mom, that I feel like I’m a good dad versus I’m okay and I want to help my child become healthier. So I like that you said that because it does shift the the genesis from which you’re doing all of this work to just a healthier place. And that’s why and I’m sure your family programs do this, that we always want to make sure that parents are working with their own therapist because there’s so much work to be done there so that you can allow that the identified patient, the person who you’re concerned about to find their own way and to work through their things without layering all of your stuff on top of it, which is, I think, what we do naturally. 00;25;24;26 Patrick Well, of course we do. And we’ve seen that even more. I’ve seen it even more in my career as parents have really kind of progressed into this even more focused thing about their kids. I remember we had, you know, parents and we had helicopter moms, and now we’ve got bulldozer parents and we got all these different terms that people are using to describe parents. But some of that is coming from also to this instinctual drive to protect our offspring. And that instinctual drive to protect our offspring is oftentimes overused, that we prevent them from being able to experience things and be able to experience pain and discomfort and the things that really build resilience and perseverance in our kids. That instinct, again, overrides our judgment as well. But that shame of how I’m doing as a parent, and that’s the subconscious is judging of my performance and how I’m doing as a parent, prevents the parents from being able to differentiate their own stuff from the offspring, from the young person, and then be able to look at it from a rational standpoint. Because when we’re being driven by emotions, we can’t use good judgment. 00;26;43;21 Brenda Hey, did you know Hope Stream Community is a nonprofit organization and we are so happy to provide financial scholarships to over a quarter of the parents who use our services. We have our first ever giving campaign happening right now. And if you’re a podcast listener and you’ve benefited from the content here, we would love it if you’d help us keep this as a free resource for parents. We’re all about action and hope. Stream community and over 84% of our members say they’ve noticed an improvement in their relationship with their child since joining, and over 69% believe their child has accepted help in one form or another as a result of their experience with us. So we know lives are being changed and we want to be able to help even more parents. If you’re able to give to our Year of Hope campaign, please go to Hope Stream Community dawg. Forward slash donate to Learn more. Thank you. Now back to the show. I’m wondering if you’ve seen has that the helicopter parent thing sort of this this really tight connection between you know how I’m doing as a parent based like my child is my report card. Is this something that has shifted that you’ve seen in your career or I just wonder where this has come from? Because I you know, I’m in my mid-fifties and I don’t remember this thing with my parents, like, you know, and maybe it was just that we were a little freer, like, I don’t know, we were just out doing our thing until whenever. 00;28;20;22 Brenda And it just seems like it is so different than a generation ago. And I just I’m curious what you’ve seen with that. 00;28;28;03 Patrick Well, I think that’s true. I think we were you know, you and I are about the same age that we were kind of the last group of real feral children that. Who just, you know, we didn’t grow up with the Internet. We had three channels. We are parents. We were the latchkey kids and all of that kind of stuff, right. That we just ran amuck and were able to do things and do a lot of that kind of stuff. But with the advent of a lot of more information nation, what I think oftentimes families have been exposed to is more tragedies, more traumas, more things like that that is driving that instinctual drive to protect their kid. Because all the time they’re being told about abductions, about pornography, about molestation, and they’re getting inundated with these messages all the time. And it kicks that instinctual drive to protect into overdrive. When you’re hearing all those messages, our parents never really heard that kind of stuff. 00;29;24;01 Brenda Well, we had the milk carton. Remember the milk carton? Kids, like that’s what I remember is like, oh, I don’t want to get kidnaped. But we would still just go out and play for hours and hours and hours and we had no idea where we were in our peers, didn’t know where we were. So let’s go. 00;29;39;03 Patrick Know we were lucky if we were able to go into a house to call our parents because we weren’t allowed indoors. But but, but I think that what happens is that with all of the news and all the varieties of ways to gather information, those kinds of stories really get to parents more often, and it leads to more exposure to these fears and insecurities. And they play subconsciously on the insecurities and the fears of the parents that they lead. It leads into it leads into that insatiable drive to protect into overdrive. And that desire that emotional reaction to all of the stimuli that we’re getting separates our ability to use reason and judgment to the extent the same degree. 00;30;24;18 Brenda You work with parents and you’ve worked with lots and lots of parents, is there sort of a misperception or a myth that you think exists in the minds of parents often that you see that you would want to clear up to say, Oh, actually this is really because you get to see the kids in such a different perspective than than parents do from from your see, what do you think parents need to know that that you see them constantly getting wrong? Because trust me, we get a lot wrong. 00;30;58;28 Patrick Yes, I know I’ve gotten a lot wrong. And so I think probably one of the primary things is to recognize that addiction is a condition of its own. And the other thing I think that we give parents message about a lot is that idea that you’re questioning how well you did of instilling values and morals into your children, you did a good job with that as evidence just by the fact that they’re experiencing the emotional pain, whether they recognize it or not, of their behaviors. So even though you can’t see it, it’s in their. And so the fact that it’s in there proves that this these values have been instilled in them. 00;31;39;26 – 00;32;11;15 Brenda Yeah, that’s great to hear because it does it is disheartening when you see like I said, I felt like I have this alien living in my home. And you you do start to think, did they completely miss the memo of like all of the things that we spend the time doing? And, you know, again, I have beautiful hindsight and I’ve received some beautiful letters from my son sharing, you know, Oh, you know, I remember when you did this at Christmastime or when you used to do this or that. And so it is in there, but it gets kind of just dwarfed by this negative behavior that you see on the outside. 00;32;20;04 Patrick Right. The evidence doesn’t bear that out. Right. And what the evidence that we’re seeing. And so I think that would be I think the other part, too, and kind of just in listening to you, I think is the idea that no matter what you do or don’t do, you will be an excuse for your kids to use drugs. 00;32;40;10 Brenda Mm Tell me more about that. 00;32;44;10 Patrick As the condition progresses and this desire to control becomes so central to the family, what happens is it creates a myth that if I do this, then perhaps you don’t use. If I don’t do this, then maybe he won’t use. And lots of times things come out of nowhere that are disproportionate to whatever is going on with the with the sufferer, where it’s like, Oh my gosh, what else? And he’s mad and leaving the house and things like that are there’s nothing you could have done to prevent any of that. And so parents will be an excuse for the individual to go use no matter what the parent does. 00;33;26;10 Brenda That is a light bulb moment because you’re so right. And what you will hear from them, at least what I often heard, is, well, if you weren’t so crazy, mom, I wouldn’t have to go use drugs. Right? Like you’re hearing the complete opposite message from the person because they’re using that. They’re weaponizing that information. Right? Right. Like, well, mom, if you didn’t make me do this or if you didn’t do that or that, I wouldn’t have to go get high. And so hearing that, I just want to reiterate that if you’re listening, rewind and relisten to that, that you could not have made a difference in that. 00;34;07;11 Patrick No. And explain sometimes why things could start off very balanced and easy and it could slip just like that or sometimes even if nothing’s going wrong, they may trigger a dynamic that leads to an escalation in reactions that justifies their ability to go use. 00;34;27;13 Brenda You have the emotional aspect of it and then you have just the chemical aspect of it. So when you put those two together, the emotions alone could cause all kinds of eruptions and, you know, words. But then you add a substance to that same conversation, and depending on what kind of substance it is, it’s going to have an impact as well. Right. Whether it’s being more drowsy and sleepy and, you know, whatever, or being more up. And so I witnessed that. And I think that’s really confusing for parents, too, is when you’re interacting, you have to always be thinking, is this person under the influence of a substance and what is the substance adding to or taking away from this interaction we always recommend. I’d be curious to hear what you say, but we always recommend that’s not when you engage, right? If you know they’re under the influence of a substance, that is not a good time to be engaged. 00;35;25;05 Patrick It is not a good time to be engaged because, yeah, it’s not a good time to be engaged because they’re unable to tap into any frontal cortex development that they have going on at that age anyway. 00;35;34;22 Brenda Right, Right. 00;35;35;25 Patrick The other side of that is, if they are looking to use as well, perhaps they’re preoccupied with their ability to go use. They want to go use. They’re about to go use. They’re thinking about when they can use next. And if the parent looks to be an obstacle, then that’s going to be met with some kind of emotional reaction as well. That’s, again, disproportionate to whatever it looked like from the outside. So oftentimes we see, especially our young men explode whenever there’s an attempt by the family to interrupt their use or to prevent them from. 00;36;18;18 Brenda Absolutely. Absolutely. And that can be that can be dangerous, too, which is, I think, something that people need to understand is the chemical hooks. And I’m really glad that you talked about addiction is its own condition, because I think part of the shame that we feel as parents is we want to push that aside, like you said, like, oh, no, no, no. This is you know, this is bipolar or this is whatever. And and the drugs are just, you know, this other thing. So I think it’s really important to recognize that. And, you know, when you work with guys and I’m a mom who’s not that big and sometimes we have big giant sons. And so it’s like it can actually be a safety thing as well. Just from super practical standpoint. 00;37;05;11 Patrick It very much can be. And I think that’s a question we get in our screening of clients sometimes is, you know, do you ever been aggressive? And it’s like, well, he was aggressive with me when I stole a stash, dumped down the toilet. But oh, okay. That’s not that. We don’t care about that kind of aggression. Well, we’re fine with taking guys that seem that kind of aggression. Yeah, that’s that’s drug addict. That’s all right. You know, And so there is that aspect of it where it can really become unsafe. 00;37;31;07 Brenda That’s a really good distinction. Yes, that’s that. And I was there. It was a huge bag of Xanax and put it in the garbage can. So, yeah, I was not the most popular person at that moment. Just thinking about the trauma that a family has endured and how you know, this. This tends to be a condition that spans multiple generations. Obviously it can. And how often when our kids start down this path, it can bring up a lot for us as parents in our past, past trauma, past experiences. How do you navigate that with families? And also, I wonder, what do you have conversations with the kids about that? Like, does that ever come up? 00;38;21;14 Patrick We do. Sometimes it’ll come up during our family or after the family program because it gives sometimes the clients perspective on their parents and things like that. But I think you’re hitting on something that we really put a lot of emphasis on, and that is that that multigenerational stuff. I think we see time and time again with our families, especially that there has been a family history of addiction, there’s been a family history of alcoholism or there’s been a family history of some other mental health conditions. And what we see is as that as their offspring’s condition starts to progress, what happens is all of that historical family of origin issues start coming in and it exacerbate bait everything else, because lots of times the way it kind of looks, it’s like this is the one thing you swore was never going to happen in your family. You’re the you’re the son of an alcoholic. And when you had your own family, we’re going to make sure alcoholism didn’t affect your family. And so they have their own unrecognized or at least unresolved family of origin issues that are now playing into it, that in a relatively healthy family probably would have had little impact on the way they parent it or the dynamics within the family. But as this condition progressed, it exacerbates their response to it because of these unrecognized, unresolved, traumatic family histories that they’ve been through. And so that all plays a factor into it as well. And so we really put a lot of emphasis on getting families to start, take a look at how their own family of origin issues may be playing a factor in this and the need for them to do some work around that as they’re learning how to parent a young man afflicted with the disease of addiction. 00;40;01;28 Brenda Yeah, because it can be a opportunity to heal and it should be an opportunity to heal the whole family. But I think that’s an unexpected result that parents are ready for. Often when this happens, it’s like, Oh, wait a minute, they’re stuff going on in all of us here and it can be a huge blessing because that that young guy can be or a girl can be the one who sort of is like, Well, I’m the most acute patient here, so I’m going to be over here a triple divide lodge or wherever doing my work. And mom and dad need to do the same. And and that was a message I did not hear until my son went into wilderness therapy. And it was pretty shocking, honestly, you know, just because I don’t think we’re educated enough about any of this to know that we all have to do the work around this. 00;40;53;11 Patrick Well and everyone does have to do the work around it. And you’re right, we I oftentimes kind of say tongue in cheek to our families. Welcome to, first of all, your week of treatment. They come to the family program. And I will say that we would probably be more successful if we had them for 90 days. And the kids truly, that’s how we really perceive the of the family getting better, because right now is as our guys are coming into treatment or even while they’re with us, it’s the it’s the identify patient that is holding all of the power in the family. And the way I present it is it’s the disease of addiction manifesting through the identified patient that is holding all the power in the family. And everybody is responding to that. And so to be able to start to recognize how that’s happened, be able to start, be and be able to start taking back some of the power for themselves. And what we want to do is start to empower the families to become the to fix themselves that their recovery cannot be contingent on how they identify patient is doing. But it’s imperative that they get better because we know that families that get better for the identified patient, the odds of recovery increase exponentially because they’ve changed the dynamic in the family, they’ve changed the rule, the patterns of behavior. They’ve changed, they’ve started dancing to a different song. And it’s no longer the identified patient that’s picking the songs stick picking the music that’s picking the steps. It has all the power. And so the family gets to start to do that and they start to become empowered as well. 00;42;23;19 Brenda Hmm, I love that. 00;42;24;29 Patrick And we start and then at that point for the family, be able to say, we’re going to take a stand for recovery. Please come join us. 00;42;31;26 Brenda That’s a really interesting shift. Yeah. 00;42;34;18 Patrick Well, it is. And I think because that’s the only thing that the family can really do anything about is their own response to it. And we all we all know that the old thing, you know, it’s like if we all sat around a circle and we put our family problems and our families in the middle, we would all go back in the middle and take our own families again. Right? We want to be we want to be our families. That’s who we are, right? There’s it’s we’re tribal and that’s our tribe and all that kind of stuff. It is this instinctual piece that we want to be with our families. And so in the family, to start to take set their own boundaries. So oftentimes we talk about boundaries and it’s like boundaries for the kid. And we cannot put boundaries on the kids. The only place we can put boundaries is on our self boundaries, our art. What are my boundaries and when are you crossing over into my body? That’s the only thing I can have any power over. And so to help the family create boundaries within the system itself and again, look at the individual and say, please come join us. But this is what it’s going to look like and we love you and we want you to belong, especially because so oftentimes there’s a message out there, you got to cut him loose. He got a lot of hit bottom. You got to do all that kind of stuff, which is great if it’s your husband in treatment, maybe. But we’re talking about I mean, we’re talking about parents cutting off their kid, which goes against what it means to be a parent. 00;43;57;12 Patrick So what can we do? We can say this is what we’re able to do, what we’re willing to do, and these are the boundaries. And please come join us and letting it be their decision so that it becomes invitational. 00;44;08;02 Brenda I really love your analogy of dancing to a different song and the combination of that and boundaries to say, Hey, we’re actually dancing to this song over here. We would love to have you come dance with us, Get. 00;44;20;26 Patrick In here at the floor. 00;44;22;08 Brenda You’re like, You’re going a totally different like chord and be like, You’re doing the tango and we’re over here doing, I don’t know, waltzing or something, but that that just in my mind I was like, Oh, that makes sense. 00;44;33;25 Patrick Exactly. And that’s the way I viewed it a lot and kind of frame it for people. It’s like, that’s what we’re trying to do is we’ve changed the music because they’ve had all the power. And again, it’s a disease of addiction manifesting through that. It’s not that that’s, that’s where all the power lies. 00;44;49;10 Brenda Yeah, well, there’s enough evidence in all the people that I know and have talked to, and I’m sure that you have to that that that’s true. That that is not them because when you meet somebody in recovery they can even talk about that other person and how you know their you can just see such a dramatic shift in their life. So really amazing. 00;45;09;19 Patrick I think another thing real quick here is just this idea to I think that as as the progression happens and as the shame develops within the family and parents and stuff like that, what we see is that the family starts to close in on itself and goes into protection mode itself. And this is a condition where it’s like we need to keep it secret. We can’t let anybody know we got that. Shame leads to that. And it’s about getting families out there to talk about what they’re going through. 00;45;35;14 Brenda Yeah, that was going to be my question is, if we are feeling that shame, what can what can we do about it? Is it like as a family member if I say, oh, my gosh, you know, I have this kid is doing all these things, the community knows about it now. The police are always at my in my driveway. All the stuff that happens. How do you not feel shame as a parent? 00;46;02;17 Patrick I think you’re going to I don’t think there’s a way to not feel shame about it. I mean, at least not to have shame develop. Now, once it started to develop, what we do is find a place to talk about it, whether that’s families Anonymous, corporate Anonymous, whether that’s a therapist that’s holding a recovery group so that we can start to see how we’re not alone. Because that shame and all of this, the stigma lead everyone in the family to start to feel alone. And one of the things that we really see it right from the off from the onset of our family program is these family families all starting to see, oh, my gosh, I’m not the only one going through this. There are other people that are just like me. And so it starts to break that up is there to help calm. It provides a sense of universality and normalcy and things like that, which is contrary To attempt to be able to experience that shame, it starts to raise starts to diminish that shame. And now I’m no longer being driven by the emotional reactions as strongly. And I can start to apply reason. I can start to apply judgment. So the first thing is really just start to figure out where I can recognize it. 00;47;14;22 Brenda Well, we’re big believers in that. Before I let you go, I would love to know what do you love most about what you do? 00;47;21;12 Patrick I think probably last week I just had a mom telling me how much the family program helped them, how much that their son being with us, helped them as a family. I love to know that it’s not just about the guys that I’ve seen and treatment and the thousands of dollars and stuff like that. But it’s when a family calls me and tells me that it’s changed their lives and that their family overall is better even when there is perhaps the loss of their life. My patient, it gives me some solace to know that the entire family didn’t necessarily lose something because I think what happens is and I say this to parents, too, it’s like if I believed giving up your life, save your son, I would get out of your way. I would not stand between you and the opportunity to save your son’s life. But the problem is, is that family’s doing that. What it leads to is an additional victim. And that victim is the person that’s trying to save their son and all the other people that are going to be affected by it as well. And so and for the family just to start to recognize that the whole system has been traumatized, they’ve been held hostage and that that’s okay. And to get to get the help themselves and to get the healing. So I know so many things. I think is there’s a there’s a reason there’s so many things. I think that’s why I’ve been able to do it as long as I have, because I still love it. So many different aspects that I find really rewarding and stuff like that. 00;48;56;16 Brenda So well, we’re lucky that you do what you do and we will make sure that we get links to Triple Divide and some of the resources that you provided in the show notes. So if you’re listening and you want to get in touch with Patrick, you can do that in the show notes. Thank you so much. I feel like we literally could have by more conversations, but we’ll wrap it up for now. 00;49;18;27 Patrick Yeah. Yeah, we could. Well, and even for parents that aren’t necessarily guys clients of ours, I’m always available to resources. I can. 00;49;25;18 Brenda Be wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you so. 00;49;27;28 Patrick Much. Thank you, Brenda. 00;49;30;02 Brenda Okay, that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda Zane Gqom forward slash podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there, so that’s very helpful. You might also want to download a free e-book I wrote. It’s called Hindsight Three Things I Wish I Knew when My Son was Misusing Drugs. It’ll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from www.Brendazane.com/hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself.