Insider Perspective, Insights and Harsh Realities Parents Need to Hear From a Therapeutic Educational Consultant with Jennifer Taylor

Hopestream for parenting kids through drug use and addiction
Hopestream for parenting kids through drug use and addiction
Insider Perspective, Insights and Harsh Realities Parents Need to Hear From a Therapeutic Educational Consultant with Jennifer Taylor
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ABOUT THE EPISODE:
Parents have so many questions when their teen or young adult kids are starting to veer off the path of normal, healthy growth and development. They may suspect substance use, emotional issues, trauma, or may have no idea why their child is struggling. It's confusing, and when you're so closely intertwined emotionally and physically with your son or daughter, it's hard to be objective and know what the right resources might be for them.

Therapeutic educational consultants are professionals whose job is to take input from families, specialists, doctors, and therapists to assess and develop a plan for kids who need help getting through rough times – or times of crisis. 

In this direct, heart-to-heart discussion with Jennifer Taylor, who is a therapeutic educational consultant in the Bay Area, I ask the questions parents often have and get answers that can sometimes be difficult to hear. 

Jennifer works with families all over the country to navigate the right plan and placements that can help their children (teens and young adults) with everything from emotional and behavioral concerns to substance use. You may not like everything you hear, but it's critically important information as you work to help your child. 

EPISODE RESOURCES:

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SPEAKERS
Brenda Zane, Jennifer Taylor
Hello, friends, I’m so glad you’re here today to listen to this episode because it means you are doing the work. You’re adding knowledge and skills to your toolkit. And this episode should be very helpful. If you have a young adult or an adolescent child who’s floundering, who has some learning differences, or some mental health concerns, or if they’re struggling with using substances to cope with all of those things, which is usually the case. And if you have one of these kids, you’re probably either drowning in the gallons of information that’s available online. Or if you’re just starting the process and sort of dipping your toe into this weird and unknown world and trying to figure out what the right resources are and who can actually help you on the journey. It can be a really, I just remember it being a really scary and frustrating place to be. 

So if this sounds like you keep listening, because you’re gonna get so many answers to so many questions. I got to have a conversation with Jennifer Taylor, who is the founder of JET Ed Consulting. It’s an academic consultation and coaching service based in San Francisco. Jennifer is also the Board Chair of the Therapeutic Consulting Association and a professional member of IECA, which is the Independent Educational Consultant Association. Lots of acronyms in this industry. So basically what that means is a she is deep in the business of helping families get plugged into the right place at the right time. And I like to call therapeutic consultants, family surgeons because they get right into the heart of what’s going on. And then they have this laser-like precision to guide you to a set of options that can help with whatever issue or issues are going on. And it’s usually a combination of issues and so it can save you just a ton of have time a ton of headache and really enjoy up in a more known and secure place than doing all of this on your own. And the options that Jennifer will often find for families can range from somewhere like an acute psychiatric hospital, to a wilderness camp or specialized boarding school. So there’s really no one path that kids need to go down in this adventure that they’re on. And what I really love about Jennifer’s is she’s so great at relating with parents, because she’s been through the experience of needing to find help for her own son. And so she has been on both sides of this table working with a therapeutic consultant, and then also being one. So really, really great perspective. So I figured she was the right person to ask all the questions that you want to ask if somebody like this, in some, you know, some hard questions about the realities of what we’re dealing with. And she was game. And so with that, please listen in to what I know, it’s going to be very interesting and very helpful conversation with Jennifer Taylor.


Brenda  06:13
Welcome, Jennifer to hopestream. I’m so excited to have you here today. Because this is a conversation that I know a lot of parents are going to be interested to hear from your perspective. And I know how incredibly busy therapeutic consultants are. So I really, really appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast with me. So thanks.

Jennifer  06:35
Hey, Brenda, I’m glad to be here. We’re busy. But doing community outreach, and parents support is something that’s just foundational to my practice, and really glad to be able to share some of my thoughts today.

Brenda  06:47
Well, thanks, it is so important because I just my lens on this as always thinking back to when I was in the thick of it. And I honestly don’t know when podcasts became a big thing like for normal people, not super techie kind of people. But I am fairly positive that in like 2013, 14, there were no podcasts about any of this. I don’t know, I could be wrong. I was not in a great state of mind back then. But that’s the lens I put on it is what information can I put out there that I would have literally killed for in the moment. So I think this is one of those conversations that I would have killed for because I didn’t even know there was such a thing as an educational consultant. So I’m, I’m just ecstatic to have you on today. And before we get into all of that, I’d love to just ask a question to let people get to know you a little bit better. And that is, what did you want to be when you were growing up? 
Jennifer  07:48
I wanted to be an FBI agent.
Brenda  07:52
That’s awesome, why that?

Jennifer  07:55
I don’t know? That’s a good question. I think I’ve always been curious about people, and motivations and personalities. And then I’ve always been kind of a problem solver. And then there’s just a part of my personality where I’ve just always wanted to make things better, and help people. And so I think if I go back, it’s like the tactical aspect of solving problems. And I know this will come across as a surprise to some people who know me, I’m actually pretty introverted. And so I actually enjoy the quiet contemplation that goes into research and thoughtful quiet time. And so I think that also had an appeal to me that it was active in my own mind. But kind of nerdy, and I was super nerdy,
Brenda  08:55
Right,  I love that. Is there, like, is there? Is there one of those crime shows or anything that’s on right now that you love to watch? Do you still like have a little bit of that in your DNA?
Jennifer  09:05
I have to say now, I’m so much more mellow that I hope folks listening don’t think I’m too mushy, but I’m big into the Hallmark Channel because it always has happy ending. In 2020, and 2020, I just needed happy endings.
Brenda  09:22
So need the happy endings.
Jennifer  09:24
So no crime shows for me right now.
Brenda  09:27
Love it. That’s excellent. Well, I am with you. We definitely need some happy endings. So I hear you on that. So kind of back to what I said is coming from the standpoint of not even having a clue what an educational consultant is a therapeutic educational consultant, maybe you can give us the one on one first, just to give us some groundwork and what that is and then we’ll get into some more details.
Jennifer  09:53
Yeah, good question. And for your listeners, I too had a son who needed residential and came to know about what therapeutic educational consultant was from the parent perspective. Okay, and I’m going to give a broad stroke because there are different flavors as I would say, of ways of approaching a therapeutic educational consultancy practice. In general, a Therapeutic Ed consultant is a professional who guides families, most of the time for an out-of-home placement. And I include in that therapeutic boarding schools, psychiatric hospitals for evaluation, what has been termed a wilderness program, which I will reframe as outdoor behavioral health, because wilderness really is a misnomer, to maybe local community resources that affect the education could include working with kids with learning disabilities, and helping them get their needs met within the school system. But I would say 75% of my practice, and this is consistent with my colleagues, is out-of-home therapeutic intervention with an academic component. 
Jennifer  11:10
So taking into account mental health, substance abuse, family of origin issues, and then making sure that we’re weaving into that therapeutic experience, no matter how acute the needs are with an academic component. And so that’s where that twist between therapeutic educational consultant, because there are also educational consultants who may do just traditional boarding schools, where you go to them and say, Hey, you know, I really would like my son or daughter to attend a boarding school that specializes in the arts. And that’s not really what I do, because that’s a more traditional path of an academic progress through high school or middle school. My clients, almost all have some kind of mental health or substance abuse challenge that is creating an unhealthy lifestyle. Got it?
Brenda  12:07
Okay, that’s super helpful. And that’s interesting. I hadn’t really thought about that, that you also, I think, when when I hear educational consultant or therapeutic consultant, I think of out-of-home placement. But that’s, that’s great to hear that you’re also thinking, is there something locally that we could loop in for this family, maybe as a first course of action. So that’s really good to know, I guess I always just thought of it as like, out-of-home placement. So that’s, that’s really interesting.
Jennifer  12:41
And when I do an assessment, having had to make that hard, personal choice within my own family, it isn’t before perhaps trying every single thing possible to create a supportive environment at home. And that necessarily means pulling in all the resources. And honestly, by the time people do get referred to me, it’s from a therapist, or from a practitioner, or a psychiatrist, who has said to the family, look, we have tried everything, this really isn’t getting the progress that is going to be successful in the long run. And we need to kind of consider some other higher level of care. But I think we’re obligated as consultants, to do an assessment and look at the whole family, and help the family figure out what’s right for them.
Brenda  13:26
Right. I love to the emphasis on education, because what I hear very often, is parents sometimes delay treatment, or starting to look at treatment, because they are just like I am getting this kid over the finish line of high school, no matter what if I have to bribe them to go to school, if I have to put them in a hotel in a foreign city, and like they will do anything just to get that kid through high school and get that diploma, regardless of what else is going on. And so I think that’s really great to know that you can have both. So there are places where your child could get the help that they need for emotional issues, or substance use or whatever it is, and also be getting that education and get that high school diploma. 
I mean, I do know why it’s so important. And I and I felt the same way for a little while with my son. But at some point, it got so bad that I was like, forget school. I just got to keep this kid alive. But I think if kids aren’t as bad as mine was – mine was pretty bad off – I think if they’re just kind of teetering on that, like me, you know, it’s kind of bad, but it’s not like criminal. Yeah, they’re not like shooting up heroin. So they’re at this point where they’re like, I can do it myself. I can just push this kid over the finish line of high school, get the diploma, and then I’m not sure that they’re thinking what’s going to happen after that. But I’m just glad to hear that it’s not one or the other. It’s you’ve got options out there as a parent to find a resource that could help both the issues that are going on and get the education.
Jennifer  15:10
And most of my clients who are in their junior or senior year, can do credit remediation. And they may not be ready to go to college right away, because we’re still working through that high school. But I’ve had students who graduate high school a whole semester early, because they get into that swing of things, they get the academic support they need, maybe they have an undiagnosed learning difference. And they just cruise through and make up credits. And then, you know, we work with what does that transition home look like, in the middle of a academic year, but I have not had a client to my knowledge, who has not graduated on time, with their kind of, quote, class of origin, like, you know, so you’re the class of 2021. My clients graduate with their class in terms of the year. So that academic piece is really actually quite foundational, in a lot of programs with AC T and SAT, and college prep and AP classes, supportive environments for doing some college preparation. They’re not college consultants, per se. But, you know, for a very bright student who also has other challenges, we do need resources to help those students get both. It’s a both, and…
Brenda  16:34
That’s so good. Because I think it can be easy to – the blinders come on and it’s like, oh, no, if we seek treatment, then there is no, ACT, there is no SAT, college is going to be delayed. And I know that that’s not the worst thing in the world. That’s obviously like colleges have been around for a couple of 100 years. I don’t think they’re going anywhere. But it can be such a stalling point for parents to seek treatment, because they just have this fear of what’s going to happen to their future. And so that that kind of leads to another question I have about when parents are in this conundrum. How do you know when it’s time to call someone like you to call a consultant to bring in that extra resource? Like you’ve been working with a therapist? Maybe you’ve been trying to work with the school counselor, you’re doing all the things? How do you know when it’s time to take that next step?
Jennifer  17:38
I love this question. And I love it because it’s an “It depends”, which doesn’t help people who are you know,
Brenda  17:48
Right, they’re like, no, I want the answer. 
Jennifer  17:51
Exactly. Even a person like me, who was like, I don’t know if this is the right decision. Well, the first two qualifiers, I will say, are pretty easy. Check the box, anybody who’s a danger to themselves, or danger to others, is probably not going to, I don’t want to say get better, is not going to develop healthier choices, and be less dangerous, but just use that word, without a pretty high level of intervention. So if you have a child who is substance abusing to the point where they have, you know, had some pretty serious effects where maybe they’ve had to go to the hospital, maybe they haven’t quite overdosed, but it looks like that their drug use is ramping up to the point where they’re super unhealthy, you know, say they’re living in a public park, and pretty much just hanging out with homeless people, even if they come home every now and then. And they’re maybe even consistently showing up at home, pretty sober and functioning, if the bulk of their time is not going to school is not healthy participation in a family. And the substitute is something that’s truly unhealthy for them, then that’s probably a point at which you say, you know what, unless my child leaves their current circumstance of residential life, we’re not going to get them better. Similarly, if they’re aggressive at home, and they’re physically abusive to a parent, or physically abusive to a pet, or physically abusive to a sibling, and then even, you know, perhaps maybe physically menacing or verbally abusive to somebody outside the home. That is also precariously a dangerous situation, not just for them, but for somebody else. 
Jennifer  19:47
And again, that signifies a behavioral response to something that’s going on underneath. That, again, isn’t going to have the right amount of care. Without leaving the home, and I often will tell parents, this does not mean you’re a bad parent, this does not mean that your home, when I say is a trigger, means that you failed or there was more you could have done, or didn’t you see this coming? I believe that shame is something that just doesn’t have any purpose in my practice, or frankly, ever. And so it’s really a conversation about healthy choices. And if there’s a consistent pattern of unhealthy choices, something needs to be done. And usually it means if I get out of my home system, my community, I can take a better look at why I was doing the behaviors. And that behavior can go away, rather than when we’re home, we’re focused on the behaviors, we’re not able to get underneath them. 
Jennifer  20:53
So those are two pretty, what I think are pretty glaring, even then you might ask yourself, well, they’re really just being verbally abusive. And it’s not really that bad. When I talk with parents, and I interview them, I’m pretty blunt about saying, Okay, if nobody’s ever told you that this is abuse, you are being abused by your child, is that, okay? And we have to really process that, and it may take quite a few times with me in conversations before that starts to sink in. So those are two kind of, I would say, bright shining indications that there’s probably more that needs to be done outside of the home. After that, I would say making an analogy between an adolescent and a young adult, who’s you know, quote, job or developmental path is to go to school and continue to have their brain development in an again, healthy way, whatever, whatever that means, in your family, the values you have. And if attempting school is one of those family values, and your child stops going to school, well, then they’re not really doing what they’re developmentally keyed up to be doing. Now, 50, 60, 80, 100 years ago, in some families kids would go and start working in a field, right? So what I’m saying is, if your child even at that point in time was just staying in bed, and not participating in life, that’s something that’s not going to get better unless you remove them from their home, because they’re very comfortable, even if they’re not comfortable. 
Jennifer  22:31
Being kind of in that lethargic state of inertia. So you know, when I have a student who family comes to me, and I say, you know, they haven’t really been doing school for six months. And I asked, well, what are they doing, it usually results in their smoking pot every day, they’re vaping, they’re sneaking out at night, they’re, you know, sexually promiscuous on the internet, they’re staying in the room with this, you know, shades drawn and sleeping, you know, they’re not eating, they’re have unhealthy sleep hygiene. And all of these things start to add up, and I just, you know, reflect back, probably not going to get better without doing something pretty dramatic. 
Jennifer  23:10
And this kids probably had therapy, and it’s just not sticking. So that kind of not coming out of your room not doing school as being a factor of you’re not participating in the world. And then of course, you know, with substance abuse, it is really a balancing act, I think for families between and you know, you may have felt this as well is when is too much, too much. Like when can I expect that my son or daughter is being a, quote, normal teenager? And when are they at risk to themselves? And what does that look like? And how does it show up? And, you know, I don’t want to be punitive. I want to make sure I give boundaries. And it’s hard to know that, and that I think is even a tougher call for parents. Unless there’s an underlying mental health issue that also starts to creep in that’s that’s obvious and diagnosed. that make any sense.
Brenda 24:15
One hundred percent it does.

Jennifer 24:17
Hopefully I didn’t just like go down a rabbit hole.
Brenda  24:21
No, it 100% makes sense. And I just, I have so many moms, in my community in The Stream that are in that exact position where you’ve got a kiddo and there’s a little scenario that we’ll talk through in a few minutes, but it’s the kid who isn’t really bad enough. They’re not really getting into trouble. There’s really no legal stuff going on. Maybe they’ve been caught, you know, in a park smoking weed or something, but there’s been no arrest. So they’re on that line of like, I know this isn’t good. And I know this isn’t normal. But it’s also not really that bad. And I think that you almost, it sounds crazy, but you would almost wish for something either, like really dramatic to happen so that you knew, okay, this is it, we got to do something, or to have somebody say, oh, that’s normal, you know, they’re gonna bounce out of it. 
Brenda  25:17
But I think it’s that gray zone that parents struggle with so much. It’s like, you just wish that there was a litmus test? Like, is there a test that we could give, you know, a blood draw? Or something that would say, okay, yep, time to go. Because it’s such an emotional decision, I think if it was just a rational thing, like, Okay, you’ve got to go in and get this surgery. That’s one thing. But this is such an emotional issue for the whole family, you know, for siblings to see their brother or their sister go somewhere and the community and it’s so devastating, when you think of like, you sort of make that trade off, like, oh, but if they stayed, maybe they would pull it together for prom, or maybe they’ll pull it together for that track meet. And you just have these hopes and hopes and hopes. And I like your qualifiers to get you to a point to say, and this is where we got was, I am not going to be able to parent my way out of this, I just don’t have the skills. And that doesn’t mean I’m a bad parent, it’s just means that I am not a therapist, I’m not a consultant. I’m not a substance use counselor. Like I’m none of those things. And I just don’t have the right tools to help this kid. So I think that’s really important what you said about don’t feel like you’re a failure as a parent or family or anything. There’s just times when it’s out of your skill zone. And you’ve got to get them help.
Jennifer  26:49
Right? Absolutely. And I think that’s where someone in my position can come in. And even if it’s hard to listen to somebody like me, I think it’s my obligation to say, I am seeing something that you don’t see that I don’t think it’s going to get better. And when you said, you know, what is enough, or my kid isn’t that wild, I might be able to reflect back and say, I actually see something different. That I think you’re perceiving because you’re living in it. And there is a bit of a diagnostic that goes on. And I think the benefit of hiring a consultant is, no matter what it is, taxes, accounting, sports coach, is the lens that we bring, is I’m noticing this, and I just want to point it out to you so that your decision making can be a bit more logical. And you’re seeing where I’m coming from in terms of that logic, because what you said is totally true. This is hugely emotional. And we know psychologically, that when our brains are hijacked by our emotions, we don’t make good choices. 
Brenda  28:07
And when you haven’t slept, and when you haven’t eaten,
Jennifer  28:10
right, when you haven’t had any water for a month, and you’re hyper vigilant. Yeah. And you have other children and maybe a job. And, yes, absolutely.
Brenda  28:23
It’s so true that having a clear lens, I sort of look at it, because I remember that that time when I was going through that my lens was very cloudy. And when you live with a teenager, even a young adult who’s doing these things, it starts to just become normal, like, oh, well, I don’t know, don’t all 15-year-olds run away for three days, like I literally didn’t know, because he was my oldest. And I don’t know, it just over time, things that shouldn’t become normal become normal, and you lose your compass. And so having somebody to say, hold on, through my clear, objective, non-emotional lens, because I’m not emotionally attached to your child. Here’s what I see was incredibly helpful. And then you kind of feel like, oh, yeah, actually, that’s true. But it helps to have somebody tell you,
Jennifer  29:20
you know, my son has some disabilities, and he started having behavioral issues early on, we weren’t quite sure what but I’ll never forget in kindergarten, he was hitting me, you know, he’s all black, like 36 inches tall or something, right? And you know, I’m picking him up from school, I’m in the hallway, and you know, he’s punching me in the leg and he’s kind of having a little bit of a behavioral meltdown. And I’m kind of getting used to it right, like this is how he expresses himself. He’s frustrated. He’s my oldest, I don’t know any better. He’s so sweet. And I’ll never forget a teacher came up and looked me straight in the eye and said he is not allowed to hit you. You absolutely cannot allow him to hit you. And it was like a light bulb went off in my head like, yeah, you’re right. This isn’t okay. And so, you know, I’ve had those aha moments to where somebody just brought to my awareness. This is not a healthy experience for you or for him.
Brenda  30:24
Right? So important, right? Because you lose that perspective over time? Yep. Okay, well, that is really good to know. And then I think there’s another challenge that parents have, and something that can sort of delay us from seeking out treatment or help and that is when our kids have. So let’s say I have a and I know it, maybe you can go in from your story, I have a child who’s on the spectrum, I have a child who has an eating disorder, or has, you know, severe ADHD, anxiety, depression,
Jennifer  31:01
or all of those
Brenda  31:02
or all of those, exactly.
Jennifer  31:05
In my practice, people usually have two or three of those things happening at once.
Brenda  31:10
Good to know, good to know. So if we’ve got all that going on, and I know there’s some substance use, so maybe it’s up here, and they’re, you know, it’s not, it’s not like they’re living in a park, shooting up heroin, right? They’re smoking some weed, I found some bottles, I know they’re doing some drinking. So I’ve got these, what I see in my mind is apparent these two separate things going on, I’ve got substance use. And I’ve got one of these other issues or multiple? How do you deal with that? Is that something where you have to treat one and then the other? Or is one causing the other to happen? Or can you find a place that can treat both of those? Because I think that is so confusing for parents. 
Jennifer  31:52
So in the treatment world, and then I’ll get back to the beginning of your question. But in the treatment world in which I work, there are primary substance abuse programs, where, really the substance abuse is the behavior and the challenge. And we would maybe even call it an addiction, which I have a really hard time with that word with adolescence. And I can tell you why. And those for adolescence aren’t really as common as more of a young adult and an adult. And the reason is that kids, and this isn’t, at least in my practice, in my experience, and there may be somebody out there that like, there’s a ton of them. And I’m like, well, in my experience in the way I approach, adolescence, and primarily, my practice is like 12, to 22. So I’m going to call it 22. And adolescent brain, the primary substance abuse world is not really where I spend a lot of my time, but I do, I have probably had a handful of teenagers and young adults, who really started at age 10, or 11. 
Jennifer  32:58
And by the time they’re working with me, we’re really heading down that addiction path like that really is where their brain is focused. It’s the drug seeker constantly. Usually, there’s a little depression or something underneath it. But primarily, that’s really their behavior. So there’s primary substance abuse, what I think you’re talking about is what’s called dual diagnosis, where there is a substance abuse disorder, which is diagnostic in the DSM-V, or the book that psychologists use for diagnosing psychological behavioral clusters, which is basically all the DSM-V is is taking a bunch of behaviors, and clustering them into consistent labels. So everybody kind of knows what we’re talking about. So substance disorder is one of those. And then there’s also depression and anxiety and borderline personality and all these other things. Dual diagnosis means there is a significant substance use issue going on here. It is undeniable, it needs treatment, it needs to have its own support system around it. And there’s something else going on here. Maybe there’s some trauma from bullying. Maybe there was something that happened that is traumatic in the family system. Maybe there was something that happens, you know, in middle school or high school, I have a lot of students and you know, this is for adults only podcast, but you know, who’ve had some sexual trauma of some sort. And we don’t know about that, right? And they go to treatment. And we think we’re treating depression and anxiety in pots and maybe some Xanax, maybe a little bit of alcohol thrown in, and maybe we’re doing mushrooms, and we find out, wow, this event happened and they never could talk about it. So dual diagnosis is a very, it’s not uncommon, I would say over a majority of my clients have dual diagnosis and the way I look at substances in that aspect can you treat both? Yes, you can. And actually, in my opinion, if you don’t treat both, you’re not going to stop the substance abuse. 
Jennifer  35:08
Some, as I said, some people really have that proclivity to the high, just in and of itself. And then there are lots of other especially that developing adolescent brain where the substance became the coping mechanism. Some kids choose self-harm. Some kids choose media, some kids choose avoidant behavior. And some kids decide, wow, this is a really easy way to shunt an emotion that I don’t know what to do with. And so for me, when parents come to me and say, wow, look at this, when all this is happening, and I say, yeah, why is that happening? Let’s, let’s figure out what it is about using substances that is creating a world experience that feels good, when we know they probably don’t feel good, or they wouldn’t be seeking out a way of altering themselves. So that’s kind of how I look at substance abuse, within my practice, is that it absolutely is connected 100% with some type of emotional experience that needs deadening or quieting. And it may not even start out that way. But it may get to be that way.
Brenda  36:31
It may just be that teens experiment. And I think this was true with my son, which is why I think it’s important to mention, because I racked my brain for years and years and years, it could just be that they start out experimenting, it’s the cool thing to do. And then they realize, oh, this feels really nice. And then as life gets harder, because it does, then that becomes the coping mechanism of choice just because it’s the known one. And it’s really easy to take a pill or take a drink, and it’s all gone. So yeah, I think you’re right. So that’s, that’s good to know. Because it can be really confusing to say, well, you know, I don’t want my kid with dyslexia just thrown into this boarding school where, you know, yeah, they’re going to stay sober. But are they going to get the educational help that they need? So it sounds like from what you’re saying is absolutely, there are programs to treat both of these things?
Jennifer  37:31
Absolutely. And may I point out that I feel like are and I’m going to talk about the United States in general, we have a really prolific and profound drug culture. You look around, and there are in every TV show, people are having wine, and every commercial or every billboard, or, you know, look around and see how much especially alcohol plays in what it means to be a grown up. And I like a glass of wine every now and then too. So I’m not judgy on if you like a gummy, and that calms you down, and your prefrontal lobe is totally closed. I’m not judging you, like, you know, it’s fine. 
However, if the picture you’re giving to your child is, I’ve had a hard day. Just need a glass of wine. What was that experience that you just modeled for your child? And I do think we, as parents don’t always think about that. And our kids learn early on from all sorts of media that a adults drink, and be drinking and having some kind of substance is what you do when you feel anxious. You know, we don’t come home after the day and go, man, I need to do some really hot yoga.  A little bit of my standing on my soapbox. And yet, I do think checking ourselves as we start to see our kids maybe slipping into maybe experimenting is a way of checking in and saying, am I modeling something unhealthy in front of my child? And again, I’m not lecturing, I’m not telling an adult what to do or what not to do. I just am pointing out something that’s become quite apparent to me as I’ve done this work is that our culture really does lend itself to having substances as part of our deadening of our emotional state rather than calling it out and saying, I’m really anxious, had a hard day. And I really need to do something to help myself feel better. 
Brenda  39:48
that is definitely a huge part of it. Because especially with legalization of marijuana, there are so many people adults and again, I’m with you, like if you want to use a gummy or edible or whatever, as an adult with with a fully formed brain, go for it if it’s illegal in your state, but when that becomes just the same as you know, having a big steak dinner or having a glass of wine or whatever, then it is super confusing to a young person when you say, well, but you can’t do this. Right? Yeah.
Jennifer 40:24
And I don’t mind having those boundaries, like, you know what my adult brain is formed? I’m more thinking of that when it’s combined with an emotional experience and an adult. And adult ties, the use or the drink with a heightened emotional experience. That’s when I feel like, hmm, how is that okay? Right, because then we’re teaching our kids that our emotions get heightened and the way we handle that is because we can actually just drink or eat something, it’ll be easy. When actually we have to teach our kids big emotions are part of life. And learning how to handle and hold on to a big emotion and reach for some positive healthy coping skill is fundamental to becoming a healthy adult. 
Brenda  41:16
I feel like that’s kind of the cornerstone of all of this. Like, it sounds pretty simple. But in the short time that I’ve been doing this, and I just always caveat that because I’m just a mom and not a therapist, I’m not anything like that.
Jennifer  41:30
I’m not a therapist, either. I just, you know, play one every now and then.
Brenda  41:34
But that what I’ve seen, and maybe it’s an advantage to come at it from a less I don’t know, educated brain, like my brain isn’t soaked in a lot of stuff is just if we can just learn how to cope in a healthy way, that kind of solves all the problems. I mean, is that too simple? Do you see that too?
Jennifer  41:56
Yes. And I think it starts when we’re younger, and we learn coping skills. And then I also think, one of the tenants that really makes it stick is community. And when you find a community of other people who believe in working through their feelings in a healthy way and support one another in that community, and you don’t have to believe in God or whatever, like, whatever community you can find, that helps you regulate yourself and feel good. For me. It might be church on a Sunday, just going to a place where I feel supported. That’s emotional regulation. 
Brenda  42:42
I agree. It starts when they’re babies, when they’re little and letting them feel those emotions and saying it’s okay. You don’t have to feel good all the time. That’s not how life works. And that’s, that’s another episode. But I wonder if I can put you on the spot just a little bit. And then I, okay, related to putting you on the spot, because I see this. And I’ll caveat this with the reality of fentanyl. So this is within the context of today, with fentanyl being mixed in every street drugs. So if your kids getting their Xanax from a pharmacy, okay, you don’t have to listen to this. I’m pretty sure like, there’s 0% of people whose kids are getting their Xanax from pharmacy. So if you’ve got a kid who is using mainly weed, but they’re also drinking alcohol, they’re also taking Xanax or doing a little bit of oxy here and there, you know, they’re in it. They’re not horrible, but they’re in it they’re using and they’re dependent. And, oh, that’s another thing, we have to go back to addiction because I’m with you on that. But they’re dependent basically, on these substances at this point. They’re kind of really not going to school. They’re really starting in a downward spiral, can they and this is where I’m gonna put you on the spot. And maybe you can just give us from your experience. Can they get through that with a local therapist? If they stay in the same school if they stay in the same town? Or maybe they even get into an IOP in intensive outpatient program? Do you see that as a viable solution that has worked for people that you know,
Jennifer  44:30
My lens is a little myopic because people generally come to me when it’s not working. And somebody else has said, you need to have your child go to residential, but I do some work in my community around substance abuse and adolescent education with parents around substance abuse and this is what I will say. You said the word I think horrible, like it’s not horrible or something. And I would say what is horrible, because to one parent, it might be and to another parent it might not be and, and not to quibble with words. But I think words are really powerful. When we talk about this, this subject, I think it depends. And I hate to keep saying that, but it really does. 
One thing I will say is, if you are a parent, and you have some idea that your child is doing this, that the other, I will bet you they’re doing 10 times that, right. So what you think is going on, is not going on? Right? It is way more. So if you even feel like you know, what your child is doing, I want every parent to think that’s 10% probably what’s going on? I just it’s absolutely 100% of my clients with substances, when they are in residential treatment. It’s like, oh, yeah, and I was doing this and I was doing this. Oh, and yeah, I had tried heroin. Oh, and I was doing this. And I was doing, oh, my God, and oh, you toss their room and you see this and that. I’ve even had clients where we toss their room when the kids are gone and there are guns. And oh, why do you have a gun? Well, I need to protect myself when I go to my dealer. Well, okay, so we didn’t know that yet. 
Jennifer  46:11
So I would just say, you probably know the tip of the iceberg regarding substances. So is that in your family? Okay. And we will just skip to B? No, it’s not okay. So can that be remedied by having some intervention at home? I think it’s really hard to be in your community, and change your behavior. I think it’s hard when you have a community that reinforces the opportunity, and the ability to self medicate that way. And also, there hasn’t been a change in routine or family system, whatever it is, I’ve had clients come to me and say, well, we’re just going to move to, let’s just say, XYZ city. So I live in San Francisco, when a client will come to me and say, I think we’re just going to move to Fresno, and they won’t have their peer group, and it will all disappear. Three months later, they’re calling me from Fresno saying, as soon as we got here, Mary found the drug culture and we’re back at it. And so what I would say is rarely without getting to unpack, uncover, why are you doing these drugs? What is it? Are we going to arrest the cycle? And I only think it gets worse. I think the sub B of that if you don’t mind me going on more?
Brenda  47:47
No, not at all
Jennifer  47:49
The sub-question is when I have families who we have made the leap, and we’ve done some kind of outer home intervention, whether it’s long term or short term, and the question is, are they healthy enough? And have we made enough progress to come home and assimilate back into our community? And can that work? There are degrees of whether that’s working? I’ll give you an example. So yes, we can. And that would require a home team that I often help family set up, which for some might include, if they’re in a religious, you know, organization, maybe your pastor, your rabbi, maybe a sober coach, a step-down program, like an IOP, maybe investing in teenager, young adult meetings and finding out where those are getting a sponsor. 
Jennifer  48:42
If you have a learning difference, making sure you have a tutor to help you with that. If you need medication for your depression or anxiety, make sure you have a good psychiatrist that’s monitoring that. So yes, you can come home. And you probably can’t go back to those friends you had before. That’s the hardest thing is how do we create an environment where you have recognized that those really aren’t your friends, like those people aren’t events, because if they were, they wouldn’t be giving you drugs? But I think it can happen with a lot of support. But I think it’s very hard without some major change, to have a child come home and go right back into that environment. 
Jennifer  49:21
So most of my clients will come back and either go to a different school, so that they have a shift in peers, or they may step down into a more traditional boarding school that has supports around it. And this is all contingent upon the fact that everybody in the family has gotten on board with making the shift in their culture, ie, maybe mom and dad don’t drink anymore, right? Maybe they do. But maybe there was some family systems issue around that coping skill. So I think coming home is hard and I think community-based efforts when there are when there a lot of drugs is, I don’t want to say impossible, because there’s always somebody who’s really can step up and make the make it work. But in my practice, it’s not possible because you really don’t as a parent know, all the stuff that’s going down, and there’s a lot of stuff that’s happening. Typically, I would ask my families, how are they buying their drugs? We don’t know. Like, okay, well, what behavior is creating the opportunity for them to get drugs? Is that risky?
Brenda  50:35
Right? So complicated,
Jennifer  50:38
right? I mean, there are so many layers, and that’s where the questions start to come. Well, they stole money from me. Okay, well, that was a month ago. How are they getting their drugs?  I don’t know how your son got his. But you know, a lot of times they steal stuff and sell it, or they trade things for it? Or, you know, they start dealing,
Brenda  50:59
they start dealing, right, yeah. Well, then that gets you into a whole different world when that happens. So okay, that’s a question that I have, because I just see so many kids try, they make the effort. And I think you’re right, they may have all the good intentions within their own body. But when you’ve got an environment where all of your friends are saying to like, Well, what do you mean, you’re going to be sober? Like, that’s not cool that like,  how does a young person fight that? I think that’s really, really challenging. I think a lot of parents go, I don’t know, it’s either this or wilderness therapy, like I either have to have them at home, or I got to ship them off, to live outside. And that seems way too extreme. Is there stuff in between there?
Jennifer  51:55
Oh, yeah, there are a lot of different things. And I think I would be disingenuous if I didn’t think wilderness was an extremely therapeutic, successful, life-changing experience for mom, dad, mom and mom, dad and dad, and uncle, Grandpa, and child. I think it can be life-changing in so many ways. And by the way, for those of everybody listening, it doesn’t have to be when your kid was so wild and out of control that that was your only option. It can be preventative, it can be you know, I have some clients who they’ve never touched substances. And I recommend wilderness for a whole different set of reasons. 
But for kids on substances, it does a couple things is it detoxes, you’re sober for at least six to 10 weeks, right? I will say it’s easy to be sober in the woods, though, as there’s no choice, there’s nowhere to go. There’s no one to get it from. And you’re kind of stuck having to just be with your bad self and work it through. So I do think it’s a good modality. I don’t recommend it for everybody though. There are short-term programs that will work on mental health and sobriety. I think a four-week program isn’t going to stop behavior. And I don’t think it is enough to work with some of the more extreme social, emotional or psychiatric diagnoses met may come along with that behavior and why that started. So I think those are good first steps to maybe a therapeutic boarding school, or longer-term, what’s called a residential treatment center, and I use them both interchangeably, is that a first step it can be and then that launches you into something longer, where you’re really never doing a wilderness program. And that can be very successful. 
Jennifer  53:46
I don’t know about in your experience. But one of the things professionally I do know is that statistically, in research, length of time is one of the factors that is the highest predictor of ongoing sobriety and success with mental health. So a four-week program may be an opportunity to take a step back and be sober for a little while and think about what it feels like to not have drugs. But I don’t have a client, who, in four weeks really arrested the substance abuse piece long enough to change a habit or a pattern. So I do think, looking at something longer is important, and wilderness is only six to 10, maybe 12 weeks. And so it’s a great interrupter. It’s a great therapeutic intervention. It’s an amazing reset, and it’s a stabilization and assessment situation. You can come home from wilderness and step back into a really strong wraparound and make big changes. But 70 to 80% of my clients wilderness is our stabilization and assessment. It’s where we really try to understand psychologically what is behind substance abuse.
Jennifer  55:01
And may I just point out and I know you know this already, and probably all your listeners do. The substances that kids are doing now are really affecting their brain more quickly and more intensely. And it’s just harder to get off them.
Brenda  55:15
Well, yeah, I was going to ask you that. Because even if your kid is just doing weed, let’s say that’s the magic kid who is really only doing that it’s still the paranoia that they’re feeling. And all these things are pretty serious. So I’m just wondering, at this point, do kids have to go to detox before they go to wilderness,
Jennifer  55:36
most of my clients do not. Even if they smoked weed all the way to walking in the door. I have had that happen. I’ve actually had a kid on the plane with his parents sneak back and take a Xanax. And then they do a blood test when the kids get them or like, um, you know, I came in with a little chemical.
Brenda  55:58
They’re so sneaky. 
Jennifer  55:59
They’re so sneaky. So it’s rare that I have a client who’s so out of it, they need detox. 
Brenda  56:08
Okay, that’s good to know. Because that I would think, thankfully, I’m not in the situation right now. But I would, if I was, that would be one of my first questions is, if I know my kid is smoking weed, and doing some Xanax, and probably taking an oxy here and there, what’s going to happen when it all comes out?
Jennifer  56:23
No, they don’t need detox, you know, clients of mine who need detox are coming out of the hospital, because they’ve really been so sick that they need in an acute situation, in an emergency room, and they’re just, they’re not stable. And we need to just give them five to seven days to just have whatever physical symptoms they’re going to have before they’re safe enough to go into a bigger treatment environment.
Brenda  56:48
Okay, that’s good to know. I wanted to just go back quickly to you had mentioned the word addiction, and that you have an issue with it, I would love to know what that is,
Jennifer  56:59
well, let’s just say I’m not a licensed substance abuse counselor, I’d have no specialization and substance abuse, right. So this is just from, you know, the hundreds of families with whom I’ve worked working with dual diagnosis and substance abuse in adolescents and young adults, I just don’t think the word addiction should be used with developing brains. Again, like I’ve had two or three clients, where I really, really worried about their ability to stop using. And they are primarily kids who really, really, really can never stop, like we’ve given them treatment, they come home and in like 24 hours, they’re back doing it. And they go to treatment facility, even with the best therapists. There’s just something about getting high that they can’t shake. 
Jennifer  57:56
And I think that’s very few younger people. And I’m not the scientist, but I just don’t see, I don’t like that word addiction, because to me, it means you can’t stop. Yeah, and I just don’t believe a teenager or young adult who gets the right mental health and community support has such an unavailable brain that they can’t stop doing drugs. And I could be wrong. And there may be hundreds of families listening to this who say, Well, our experience was you know, they were an addict at age 15. And they are an addict today. And I would, I’d love to know more about that story. But I think it’s a loaded word.
Brenda  58:40
I do too,
Jennifer  58:41
to say, oh, my 16-year-old is a drug addict.
Brenda  58:44
I just don’t believe it. They have a mental health issue.
Jennifer  58:47
So that’s me. That’s how I feel about
Brenda  58:49
I appreciate that. I think I think that’s really interesting to hear. Because I think you’re right, there is a big difference when you’ve got a brain that is not done remodeling yet. And then you layer substances on to that undeveloped brain. That’s a different scenario than a 45 year old, started taking oxycontin after back surgery. I mean, it’s just such a different scenario. So yeah, I was curious about that.
Jennifer  59:17
Yeah, no, I think I also think, you know, again, like I’m kind of going back to words, I think words and the way we verbalize things have a lot of energy behind them. And I think the word addiction has such a powerful emotional bang for the buck that I just, I just really don’t want families and teenagers to even put that in the realm of consciousness. Because I just don’t think kids are addicts. And we could debate the definition, but I don’t like that word. I don’t really like to use it with my clients.
Brenda  59:57
I appreciate that. I think what they are is, and again, not a scientist therapist or any of that, I think what they are is they are brilliant problem solvers. And Xanax is a brilliant problem solver for a teenage kid who’s got a ton of anxiety and social pressure and all of that. It’s just easy, and it works. And so I think that if you can kind of look at it through that lens to say, your kid is really smart, they figured out a way to make this problem go away, not in a healthy way. We’re not saying it’s the right way to do it. But they have solved a problem. So let’s figure out what that problem is, like you said, let’s go back to the underlying issue. And then the weed and Xanax becomes the band-aid that they have found that works really well. So I think they are brilliant problem solvers. And if we look at it that way, it can just change the conversation and I am 100%. With you, I think words can be so powerful, and so damaging if they’re used in the wrong way.
Jennifer  1:01:09
And let me just qualify because I think the word addictive does fit. I think there are addictive behaviors, we can say they have become perhaps addicted or have an addictive behavior with a particular drug, meaning they really are having a hard time breaking that habit. That doesn’t mean they’re an addict. Like I really, I don’t know, maybe it’s me. But yes, I love the problem solver. I think of the kids who buy the Ritalin from friends with ADHD to get through their high school exams. Yeah, great. Wow, you’re so smart. You found you found something you didn’t need to keep your brain going, like, for you? 
Brenda  1:01:56
And I don’t want people who are listening to think like making light of it. But I think at some point, you do have to realize that these kids are smart, like they are really, really smart kids, whether they have severe learning issues, or you know, whatever it is, they are smart kids. And if we give them credit for that and say, okay, cool. You’ve you figured out how to solve this problem. I bet there’s another way that we could solve it. Do you want to try that? One that doesn’t involve police cars, and getting beat up by drug dealers? And you know, just little things like that. I would love to hear if there’s like a scenario that you see all the time or a question that you get asked all the time that in your head, you’re kind of rolling your eyes. And if I can give you a billboard in downtown San Francisco that would say this one thing once and for all, this is what I want to say to parents of kids who are struggling. What would that say? O
Jennifer  1:03:01
Can I have two billboards? 
Brenda  1:03:02
Sure. I’m being extra generous? Yes, you can have two. 
Jennifer  1:03:05
Okay, thank you, one on the way to SFO and one on the way coming back. The first one is kind of just goes back to what I said before, you know, it would be a kid talking to a parent, saying, I just smoking weed on the weekends, believing that your kid is truthful about what they’re doing. No, don’t believe it. Not for one second, not one teenager is telling you the truth about the substances. They’re doing that one, but I think if I had one billboard, it would be like a flower child from the 60s and tie dye smoking a bong or a big, you know, joint or something. And just, you know, like, looking like they’re dancing and happy and just kind of little, you know, out of it. And then, you know, maybe a break in the picture. And on the right side would be, you know, somebody sitting on the sidewalk curb, smoking a joint and just looking like hell would you say would say something like, pot is not pot?  
Jennifer  1:04:15
I don’t think parents really get the pot the kids are smoking is not what was in the 60s and 70s when maybe you were developing and oh, what’s the big deal? They go out on the weekend and they get stoned. I’m like, well, the big deal is they are completely rewiring the brain development. Yes. And the chemical makeup of the brain. We can visibly see it on MRIs when the 60s and 70s were around. There may have been some let’s I guess I don’t want to make light of it was there you know, an effect on the brain and neurological development. Of course it was. I mean It’s a drug. Right, and what is being smoked and dabbed and eaten? And you know, the fentanyl laced pot? I mean, there is what is being done out there is not just the oh, it’s just not that bad. It is that bad. It absolutely is that bad? And so if I could just tell parents, you just can’t say, oh, it’s only pot? You can’t.
Brenda  1:05:29
And for anybody listening, go to hopestream, Episode 46. With Dr. Nzinga Harrison, it is called the marijuana episode because I just didn’t want to like put any fluff around it. Listen to that, it will absolutely change what you think and believe about marijuana. So I just wanted to throw that in there. Because it’s so good. Yeah, super important. Okay, I love it. I even have a visual in my head, I might have to, like, mock that up or something. Because that’s so good.
Jennifer  1:05:59
I mean, it’s just so I don’t think parents really get it. And even when I do parent education, I think we’re still trying to create an understanding, I almost wish I could do a little demonstration. And you know, this would probably be illegal and not particularly ethical, but give parents a little taste of what their kids are doing. Right. And you’ll be like, holy crap!


Brenda  1:06:21
Yeah, no, it should actually have a different name. Like, I feel like there should just be a renaming and rebranding of marijuana. Maybe it’s I don’t know, we got to get somebody on that. But it is a completely different product. Yeah. Episode 46. Go back and listen to that. Because it is so informative. Well, this has been incredibly helpful. And I think it’s it’s a lot of the questions that parents really are dying to ask somebody from, from a position who has seen these hundreds and hundreds of times over because part of the problem is our cloudy lens, right? Like our lens is very cloudy. But also, as a parent, you don’t have 100 or 200, or 1,000 kids that you’ve seen this and you have one, maybe two. But it’s normally one and then you’re just like deer in headlights, what do I do? So this has been so valuable to get your, your viewpoints and just your insights from that non-judgmental and non-emotional standpoint, because that’s what we need to keep our kids healthy. Because if it’s up to us, we want to love them to death. And I think what’s happening is some parents are loving them to death, because they love them so much. They are terrified to reach out and find some help and maybe have them go away somewhere. And then they take a Xanax that’s actually fentanyl, and they die. And that is what is just killing me. And what drives me every day to do this, because that is so unnecessary for that to happen.
Jennifer  1:08:02
And can I just say one thing about the shame, blame game? Sending your kid away is not sending them away? No, if I could rebrand that, I would say what I tell my clients and what I believe in my heart I did. You are giving them an opportunity to get healthy and live a productive adult life. You are not the parent who, oh, they had to send Johnny away. No, no, you were the parent who is brave enough to step up and say, you know what, this is not working. I am going to do the hard thing. Because I know it’s what you need. End of story. Do not look back and do not think that you’re the bad parent in the neighborhood. Because I will tell you, there are 20 other parents you don’t know, already did the same thing.
Brenda  1:08:53
Right? Yep. It is so true. I’m so glad you said that. And I need to watch that because I do use that language. And it’s crazy. Because even today, my son will say you saved my life. You saved my life by sending me away. And you know when I mean, I honestly truthfully believed in my gut that he was never going to speak to me again, when I had him transported out to Utah when he was 16. Because at that time, you don’t have perspective, you don’t have the foresight to see what’s going to happen and all the amazing things that he experienced out there. And just you know, he credits that as really being transformational. 
Brenda  1:09:37
He went through many years after that of being in trouble and using and it wasn’t a quick fix. But he even says you saved my life because of the things that were going on when I was 16. So it is something that you shouldn’t look at as a bad thing. It’s like this is the biggest gift you could ever give your child if you’re going to give them anything. If you have saved $400,000 for them to go to college, spend whatever you need of that to get them to help at 16 or 15, or 18. Because you might not have to use that $400,000 if they are in a grave because they took a Xanax that was laced with fentanyl.  I mean, that sounds kind of brutal, but that is the reality.
Jennifer  1:10:23
No, and I often have that conversation with parents who say, what about college? And I say, well, whoa, who said there’s going to be college? We’re not even getting through high school here. And I will also say, and this was something you kind of touched on it when you said 16, probably every single family who comes to me, especially when there’s a substance abuse issue, not primary mental health, and maybe a learning difference, has said, I wish I’d done this sooner. And they don’t say it when we’re contemplating what program and how to do it. It’s, you know, a month or two into it, or a year later. And when I have parents mentoring other parents, you asked me at the beginning kind of coming full circle, how do you know when you know? And you don’t, but I will tell you, a lot of my clients will say, I’m glad I found you. And I wish I’d done this six months ago.
Brenda  1:11:13
Yeah, I hear you on that.
Jennifer  1:11:15
And you’re right, do you want to wait for the bad laced drug that came from some shady creep on the sidewalk?
Brenda  1:11:24
No, or, alternatively, from the very nice, shiny Mercedes that your child called and dialed up via Snapchat, or Instagram, and they come and they drop it off at your house.
Jennifer  1:11:39
This is true.
Brenda  1:11:40
That’s the scenario that I think a lot of parents are not aware of is when they think of their kid buying drugs. They think of the shady guy down the street, no, no, no,
Jennifer  1:11:50
That was a horrible stereotype. I just thank you for calling me out, right?
Brenda  1:11:56
That is also reality because I saw a lot of that. But today, the reality is, it’s getting dropped off at your house. And it might look like an Uber driver just kind of pulled up at your neighbor’s house or down the street. But that is your child’s drug dealer. And I think that is super important for parents to know.
Jennifer  1:12:18
Yep. I’ve had a couple parents tell me they chased people out of the backyard.
Brenda  1:12:24
Mm-hm.  It’s gone to a whole new level, like, next level with the deliveries. And yeah, well, I need to let you go, because I’ve taken up more of your time than I intended. But this is just been so amazing. Thank you so so much, we might have to do a couple of follow-ups. Because I can already I already have so many notes that I’m gonna have to call you back. But thank you for giving us this time of years and helping parents and where can people find you if they want to connect with you and learn more about this? This whole? Yeah, thing?
Jennifer 1:13:00
This whole professional life I created for myself? Yeah, so yeah, so my company is named JET ED Consulting, like the plane. It’s my initials. But I like the metaphor of lifting, lifting people up. So it’s j e t, e. d, as in David consulting dot com. And then my email is Jennifer at jetEdconsulting dot com. And if you find my website, there’s a little button and you can just drop in and have a complimentary 30 minutes with me and just get to know what’s going on. And I can meet you and we can just get to know one another and talk through what might be going on in your family and decide if I’m a good fit. And if not, I’m happy to refer to other folks that I think might have better resources. So that’s how to find me and I just welcome anybody to just give me a holler and see what I can do to help.
Brenda  1:13:55
That’s awesome. And I’ll put all that in the show notes. So if you didn’t catch all that or if your brain is just on overload from everything that we just talked about, just go to Brendazane.com/podcast and you will find the show notes and all these resources in there for you as well. So thank you, Jennifer. I appreciate it. Have a wonderful weekend.
Jennifer  1:14:16
Thank you, Brenda, you as well.
Brenda  1:14:18
You might also want to download my free ebook called HINDSIGHT: Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted To Drugs. It is packed with information that I truly wish I had known back in the darker years with my son. And so I share it now in case it might be helpful to you in your journey. You can get that at Brendazane.com/hindsight, and I will put a link to both of these resources in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for listening. I’ll meet you right back here next week.

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