Using a CRAFT Informed Response When Your Child Has A Relapse With Drugs or Alcohol, with Erica Lubetkin, LMHC, NCC

SPEAKERS Brenda Zane, Erica Lubetkin Brenda Hello, welcome to this week’s episode of Hopestream. This is the podcast for parents, guardians or other people who love a teenager or a young adult who is misusing drugs or alcohol. I am Brenda Zane, your host, and I’m so glad you’re here today. As a mom who went through the scary and confusing experience of watching my oldest son’s slip into a very high-risk lifestyle, and addiction. I can relate. One of the things I truly wish I had found earlier when I was going through our family’s ordeal was CRAFT, which stands for community reinforcement and family training. We’ll get into what that means in this episode. But I didn’t know about it. So I spent a lot of years doing everything opposite to what you are going to hear about today. I yelled, screamed, blamed, shamed, threatened bribed. Pretty much everything I could do, thinking that that would make my son change, but it did not. So I wanted to combine some really good solid craft knowledge with a focus on relapse because that is one of the things most parents experience and it is devastating. It is confusing, it’s so easy to feel like you have failed, or your child has failed. It is just really rough to go through. And if you’re a seasoned hope stream listener, you know what book I am about to recommend beyond addiction, how science and kindness help people change. You can get this book on Amazon, I would say get it a local bookstore. But if you are listening in the UK, or Canada or Australia or one of our other countries, I’m not sure where you would find that at a local bookstore, maybe you would, but if not, I probably don’t have the right link for you in the show notes. So you can find it online. I know Amazon has it. The author’s last names are Foote and Wilkins. So Beyond Addiction will really help you get an understanding about substance use in general, about addiction, about motivation and influence. All the things that are really important when you’re trying to help somebody who is struggling. And to have this conversation. I invited Erica Lubetkin to join me. She’s a psychotherapist who is also certified in CRAFT, which is actually pretty unusual. And so I felt like she was the right person to talk with about relapse. And what a CRAFT informed response to relapse looks like Erica is a like I said a therapist. She is also a coach with WWE, the village.co which is an online destination to find answers, and help others by sharing what you have learned when someone you care about is struggling with addiction. So that might be a child but it also might be a spouse or a partner or a parent or just a friend or sibling. And wethevillage focuses on CRAFT specifically so be sure to check out the show notes for more information on them and all the resources that they offer. I think this is going to be a really helpful episode on a complicated and emotional topic. So listen in now to my conversation with Erica. Brenda Erica, welcome to hopestream I am thrilled to have you on because you are a crafty person like me, we both kind of follow the same. I don’t know what you call it a methodology or model. We can talk about that too. But I am thrilled to have you on so thanks for taking time. This is a hectic week just before Christmas and New Year’s. So welcome to the podcast and thank you for joining me. Erica Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. I’m so excited to chat with you about important things and connect with them. Another crafty person, as you say. It’s always really exciting and amazing to connect with people all over. And I love this stuff. Brenda Yeah. And actually you are connecting with people all over the last time I looked there were people downloading the podcast from 43 different countries. Erica Oh, wow. That’s amazing. Yeah. Okay. Let’s spread the good information. Brenda I know exactly. So I love our topic. Today, we’re really going to be focusing on talking about relapse and, and we’ll get into, like, verbiage around that. But it’s such a emotional topic for parents in particular, it’s something as we were chatting about before, that you just don’t hear a lot about like it feel like 90% of the conversation is about how do I get my person into treatment? Erica Right? Brenda So I’m super excited for the topic. But why don’t you give us a little bit of background, just about you kind of why you decided to become a therapist, and then especially, I’m always fascinated why people go into addiction and substance use. So why don’t you give us a quick overview of the Erica 101. Erica Okay, happy to, I always like to answer this question by practicing that. My dad is a cognitive behavioral therapist, psychologist has been in practice for almost 15 years here in New York City where I’m from. So I was kind of born into a very therapeutic world, you could say, I was steeped in it. Yes, yes. Erica I really tried to do everything other than become a therapist when I was in college. And even after college, I tried to major in business for law, anything that wasn’t psychology, because I was like, I don’t need to do this. But ultimately, after I did major in psychology, and after a few years working, just random jobs. Administratively, I had this realization that I wanted to be a therapist, and this is what I was going to do. So I started reaching out to people in New York City to see if there were any availability, like for opening jobs. I like to work with psychologists here, not necessarily doing therapy, but even like administrative work. And one of the only places that responded to me, and I sent probably like 100 emails was the center for motivation and change, which is really amazing. Outpatient Treatment, facility, rehab, whatever word you would want to put on it here in New York City. They opened their inpatient in the Berkshares. A while ago. I don’t know exactly how long though, but I started working there as an administrative assistant. Erica And I became so interested in the addiction space in the world of addiction. I was working with them as they launched their book Beyond Addiction, which is a CRAFT book. And I also was there when they open the Berkshires inpatient rehab, and that definitely shaped a lot of my interest in working in the addiction space. But I also will say that, like most people, I have personally been impacted by knowing someone loving someone who struggles with substances addiction, substance use disorder. And I know how hard it can be and how challenging it can be. And what I really absorbed when I was working at CMC was that there’s so many different ways to help people, but nobody really knows the different ways everybody just, you know, automatically thinks like 20 a day inpatient. That’s what the person needs. Erica And this experience really began to guide the way that I went through my grad school experience. So I worked at CMC while I was in grad school, they were amazing. They supported me in my every single project that I had, every single class that I took, I made every homework assignment about something addiction treatment-related. So I knew like, immediately from like day one of grad school that this is what I was going to do. The direction I wanted to go in, and I got my first internship working in an intensive outpatient program here in New York City. And that was really, really cool. And then when I graduated I also left CMC because they were hiring psychologists only. And I went the Master’s route because it was less time and I just wanted to get out there and help people. Erica So when I finished that program, I worked at another intensive outpatient program here in the city, it was an evening program, where people would go to work from nine to five, and then Monday through Thursday come to treatment, from 6pm to 9pm. So it was really intense. And it was really interesting to work with people who were going to work and then go into treatment every single day, I really loved it. But something that I noticed was that there was a very direct, one size fits all sort of mentality for everybody who came into the program. And that has to do with insurance, it has to do with, you know, certain places operate via like abstinence based models, 12 Step models, whatever it may be, but it really puts people into like this one size fits all, you must do it this way, or it won’t work. Erica And that always, you know, got to me a little I will say, and within the eight-week IOP program, which stands for intensive outpatient program, there was only one hour that was dedicated to a family session. If the person the client that I was working with, wanted to bring a family member. And so out of all the hours, I think it’s 12 hours a week that people would be coming into treatment for eight weeks, only one hour for family members in that one hour. It was like, Okay, here’s what your loved one struggling with, here’s the ways to talk that it just felt very setup, very chaotic. And here’s a list of Al-Anon meetings if you need any support, very, very nonpersonalized, very just like mechanical. And it felt weird. Erica And honestly, it wasn’t until I left that place. And started working with this amazing woman Jane Mackey at wethevillage.CO, which we can talk about later that I realized how important the family component was and how it was a huge, huge gaping hole in the whole addiction treatment system. And through working with Jane and we the village, I got trained in craft by Bob Meyers here in the city. And then we did a clinical trial study funded by NIDA. And I had to become certified in craft in order to be a therapist, who was sort of leading some of these groups for the study. And that was really scary but amazing to become certified, you have to record yourself in session and send it to people to code and analyze and Ooh, boy tell you how well or not well, you did in a certain session. So it’s a bit of an ordeal to take on. I think that’s why a lot of people don’t do it, to be honest with you. Erica But because I had to I did and I’m really happy that I did because leaning into this part of addiction treatment has been the most fulfilling part of my career, I would say it has opened my eyes and really allowed me I think to help people in a very more in-depth way than the traditional way that I was kind of operating on prior to becoming certified in craft and to be able to do this kind of work, where we can help family members and loved ones who are just completely clueless, figure out their journey, what they should be doing all of the crafty things which we can get into I just felt really good. And it reignited my passion for the work that I was doing in the agencies that I worked in. So it really was like it. It was an incredible like blessing for me and also like to pay it forward and share the information with as many people as I could. I wish craft was around when you know myself or other people I know really needed it. It actually was around but no one really knew about it. Erica So right. I find it really important to just like, let people know about it, which is why I love what you do because you’re sharing information, access all this stuff with so many people which is amazing. Ultimately, that’s what we want to do. We want everybody to know the craft exists, so that it can be an option for them. But yeah, I definitely I work with people who have anxiety just Like, you know, I like to say, people like myself just like a neurotic New Yorker, I have a lot. I’ve worked with a lot of people who just do no daily stuff. But I definitely like have a passion for working the addiction space. And it’s been a pleasure leaning into the family and friends and supportive loved ones component of it all because it’s, again, it’s like the missing link, in my opinion. It’s been the missing link. Yeah. Awesome. And now my dad refers people to me all the time. And I get to school him on addiction, and it’s amazing. Brenda I could just imagine being around the dinner table with you. Erica So he’s like, Er, Er, so I have this client who’s drinking a lot and, antabuse, right? And I’m just like, okay, let’s talk about this. Let me teach you something. And yeah, now I’ve got him referring people. To me, it’s really, it’s been really fun and interesting and cool to be able to school, this renowned cognitive behavioral therapist, that my dad is on stuff that he knows nothing about. But he’s learning, you know, even this at this stage in his, in his game, his learning. Brenda That’s amazing. And what I love about that, too, is that CRAFT, and we’ll talk if you’re, if you’re listening in, you’re going what in the world are they talking about? Don’t worry, we are going to tell you in a second, it works no matter if you’re 75 and drinking too much. Or if you’re 17. And you know, using fentanyl, right, it’s, that’s the great thing about it. So it’s not exclusive to an age group or to a substance. So, CRAFT is community reinforcement and family training. I’ll let you since you’re the expert, you’re certified, and I’ll let you describe it. But it’s really a way of moving your loved one toward a healthier place. It doesn’t have to be treatment, and keeping that relationship. So why don’t you kind of wrap what craft is, in what I’m thinking is where I’m going with this is if I was coming to just kind of a traditional therapist, not a CRAFT therapist? How would you interact with me differently than somebody who isn’t trained in CRAFT? Does that make sense? Erica Yes, absolutely. So you know, if somebody were to come to me, and say that their loved one was struggling with substances, and I was just, you know, a traditional therapist with a specialty and anxiety, depression, etc, I would most likely be encouraging them to do things like going to Al-Anon or finding out ways in which they can create boundaries, detach with love, explore, why are you enabling, these are all things that like a lot of I would say probably non-CRAFT therapists would say in these scenarios, also, a lot of how does that make you feel, which is like, a golden therapist question. And the difference with craft is that it’s really, really structured behavioral modification techniques that I as the craft therapist, teach my clients, and they can take action on that day. Erica So it’s, there is you know, when I’m working with people, outside of the CRAFT groups that are run through wethevillage, which we can discuss later, there is I do ask people how they feel about things and like, what does this bring up for you and that therapeutic aspect, but it really, it’s so behavioral-based, that it gives such tangible skills, and it gets a little bit away from the talk therapy and more into this is what we can do in this situation to improve this you can communicate effectively using these tips for positive communication and see these outcomes let’s roleplay how that would look. Erica And by you know, giving people those tools, it gives them a sense of empowerment and when somebody comes to me to do CRAFT work, I always let them know this can be very time-bound, you know, it can be 12 sessions where we go through the modules the all of the procedures, and we all teach them to you and you can take them and you know, fly in life and go off and, you know, flourish with your craft skills, or we can meet for a year and focus on whatever you need to focus on in the moment. But the biggest difference is really like it is very structured, and very skills-oriented and homework oriented and workshopping and role-playing, and actually like, creating concrete goals and steps that people can take to help their loved ones. And, I mean, there are three goals for CRAFT. Ultimately, we all want our loved ones to get into some sort of treatment. So that’s obviously one goal. Another goal is also reducing the harmfulness of their substances. So there’s a lot of education that I provide around, like, what is recovery? What are the behaviors that we want to see reduced, and how can we get that to happen, doesn’t necessarily mean accidents like that there’s a lot of education that goes on, when I’m talking about that second goal. And the third goal is independent from whatever trajectory your loved one is on improving the quality of your own life. Erica So if you do everything that you can, to sort of, you know, implement the CRAFT skills, do all the things and nothing changes. CRAFT encourages self care, so that you can live your life and not be consumed and completely, like, overwhelmed by the concern for your loved one. At a certain point. Unfortunately, for some people, nothing really works. And I’m not saying that to instill any fear or whatever it anyone, it really, CRAFT really does work. And it’s magic. And I’m always blown away by it. But if for, you know, whatever reason, nothing is working. The aim then shifts to like, how can we create a life that is fulfilling for you, knowing that you’ve done everything that you could to help support your loved one independent of wherever they are in their recovery. So it’s really like hitting on a lot of amazing things. And there’s a lot less of talk therapy aspects to it. And it’s like I said before, it’s way more like concrete, behavioral modification, stuff very, like CBT, challenging, irrational thoughts, craft, implementing communication skills, reinforcing positive behaviors, like it’s very, very tangible stuff, which is really interesting. I love it. I think it’s awesome for people to receive the information as well. Brenda Super helpful. And I just want to clarify, when you’re talking about behavior modification, you’re talking about the person who loves the person who’s using substances. So you’re not saying we’re modifying the behavior of the person who’s struggling with substance use, we’re modifying our own behavior. Yeah. which then impacts them. I just wanted to make that distinction. Erica Absolutely. Yes, we modify our behavior, or whether it’s the way we interact with our loved ones, the way we think about the situation, whatever it may be. And a really cool thing that can happen is when we change the way we interact with people, they pick up on it. And if we start communicating in a positive, nice way, maybe we’ll start getting a dialogue going versus a fight. So by us changing the way we behave as the concerned significant others, it can potentially influence positive behavior change in our loved ones, without even being overt about it. It can be very sneaky. Yes, good way. Very sneaky, fun experience. Brenda I actually, in The Stream Community that I host for moms, we just did a big workshop on and we called it the ninja communication skills, because it can be very kind of under the radar doesn’t have to be really obvious, very stealth. And so that’s what I love about it, too, is it’s not like, Okay, we’re gonna sit down now and have this very serious conversation, right? It’s just something that you can weave into your day to day conversations. Erica Absolutely very common. One of like, the motivational hooks for getting somebody into, like having a conversation about maybe treatment with a loved one is when they start asking you like, you’ve been really nice recently what’s going on? Right? or what have you been doing with, like that craft book that I said, you know, and they start asking questions about the way that we’ve shifted our behaviors. So yeah, so we’ve already started but also I’ve done like lunch and learns on this with the communication topic. And everyone always says, oh, so I can just use this with my husband or Oh, so I can just use this with my kids. So it’s just like good life skills that are just being really honed in and applied to like, this particular population, but it’s also really good. Just things to look at in general. Also, like, a really interesting thing that happens is the way We communicate with everyone in our lives changes for the better. With things like you know, the communication stuff, Brenda I would totally agree with that. I am definitely guilty of using it with my husband and my all my kids that you know whether or not they’re struggling. So I love that. Brenda Hey, I hope that you are enjoying this conversation, I want to take a quick break, to let you know about a very special place where you can meet me and almost 100 Other moms who have kids in various stages of substance use and recovery. It’s called the stream and as a private, global online community, away from all social media. So this is not another Facebook group, where we support moms and focus on your health and well-being, you probably spend a lot of time focused on your son or your daughter. So this is the place where we take care of you, you can hang out with us free for two weeks to see if it’s the kind of support you need, you can check out a short video and get more detail at the stream community.com. Now back to this great conversation with Erica, Brenda If people are listening, and they’re typically parents of either teenagers or young adults, or even, you know, adults in their 30s 40s, who are struggling in some way or form, or they may be in early recovery. And such a common thing is this idea or not the idea, I guess the event of relapse. And I’d like to talk about language with you too on that. But I know that, you know, so much of our focus is on the front end. And then when something like that happens for parents, it is just so devastating. To see all of that work. And in the way that I experienced it and that I hear from the people I work with is I had my kid back, like I had him back or I had her back when they were in treatment, or right after they came home and happy and laughing. And it was just like everything that used to be. And then I started seeing this, and then I started seeing that. And sure enough, I found out he or she is using again. And it is so hard, we see it as a failure. Often as parents, we see either failure on our part that we didn’t find the right program, or we didn’t do it in time, or we didn’t keep them there long enough. Or we think that our kid has failed in that while they learned all these skills, they should know it by now and be done with this. And this is just nonsense. And they’re just making this choice. Mm-hmm. So I would love because I’ve never done a deep dive into this kind of what is the CRAFT response to somebody who starts using again, like, what, what do we do? Erica Yeah, I mean, it can be a scary thing to hear initially. But we do always sort of normalize the idea that this can happen, setbacks can happen. And they unfortunately, oftentimes do happen. So sort of creating that as like a headspace to be in for a parent versus like, I’m sending my loved one to treatment, and they’re gonna come home and everything’s gonna be great forever. So sort of creating a more realistic picture of of what so recovery looks like, and normalizing that it can include setbacks. But these setbacks are not failures, they do not erase all the progress made, they do not erase the fact that we love them. Like it can actually be seen as information and data for us and our loved ones. Erica But, you know, sometimes setbacks occur. And sometimes it can be in the form of something that we would say is like a slip, which is maybe when somebody you know, has a drink or two or has a night out after being in recovery and sober for a bit, and then realizes the next day I gotta go, I got to go back to my therapist, I gotta go to group I got to get back on track. I gotta be honest with what happened, tell my parents, whatever it may be, and that’s considered a quote, slip, or lapse, versus what some would call like a full blown relapse when somebody just like, goes off and seems to get the effects and kind of just like disregard everything recovery related, etc, etc. But again, this is not a moment of failure, or the parents messing up or the kid messing up or whoever messing up. It’s part of the process, unfortunately. Erica And the things that we need to look at are sort of like, did this occur in a time bound way? Like, was it a short period of time and evening? Or is this a long lasting thing that’s been happening for a month that I didn’t know about till now? And always assessing for safety? And what can we learn from it, which are things that sometimes we don’t even really think about, in terms of what concerns us about if a loved one relapses or has a slip or whatever it may be. But a very crafty way of looking at it is sort of thinking about what we’re most concerned about. And when it comes to like a relapse, what are the outcomes that we’re most concerned about? Erica What is like the scenario that we’re fearful about and how we would want to respond. And this kind of is planning, maybe while your loved ones in treatment, it’s kind of like relapse prevention planning for family members and loved ones, not only the, you know, identified patient or person that we’re supporting, but looking at sort of how we would really like to respond in these kinds of situations before they happen, can be helpful just to visualize, because, up until that moment, most likely most people have no idea how they would want to react, respond, what they would want to implement. It’s a gut reaction thing that happens that you kind of send people into a tailspin of acting on emotion versus like rational thinking. Erica So like, the CRAFTY way is sort of planning for it. It’s like contingency planning, and then looking at it and say, like, how would I ideally respond to a lapse to old behaviors or a relapse? And our loved ones? And like, how would I want to plan for it? Is there a way that I could help foster a return to healthy behaviors? What are some of those ways would it be reaching out to you know, X, Y, and Z? Naa, their sponsor that reaching out to their therapist, whatever it may be, and creating an environment where we can have positive communication with our loved one about the thing that just happened? Or worry, our fears, etc, etc. and exploring with them, like what went wrong? What can we do better? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. So how can we stay away from insanity? How can I support you and help you and all the while sort of keeping in mind like, they had a period of sobriety or accidents or recovery or whatever word we want to put on it, and never losing sight of the fact that that was real. And that happened, and celebrating it and using it as like a benchmark sort of to look at and say, You can do this, you know, you’ve got this, I’ve seen you, I’ve seen you have the ability to sort of like dig deep and do this, I have no doubt that you will have trouble doing it again, you know, so like giving them a little confidence when maybe they don’t, our loved ones wouldn’t have it themselves. There’s a lot of different like tips and tricks that I could drop here. But like, it’s, it can be like, earth-shattering when this happens. But I’m here to say that it doesn’t have to be, we can do something about it, you know, we can be a part of it in a good way. Brenda That’s what I was going to say is it is so earth-shattering. So one of the things that I love that you said is just plan for it, it’s kind of like better to have a plan and never have to use it, then to not have any sort of a plan for that conversation or that situation. And then like you said, go into some freak-out emotional reaction that maybe causes more damage than it needs to. I know I went there because I did not find craft until after my son was better. And so every time he would relapse, and his were actually full-on relapses. Yeah, I just lost my mind. Yes. So because nobody had told me, Oh, this is very likely going to happen. Right? I was under the delusion that, you know, I just spent upwards of $100,000. Of course, he’s going to be fixed. Erica I mean, I would feel the same way. Of course. And I will say, you know, just like with like drug education and school, how, like, it’s not as robust as it could be. I’ll Brenda that’s a generous way to say it Erica I know. I know. And I’m coming from. I’m born and raised in New York City, and I have no idea what I learned in those classes. But there’s nothing for the parents. There’s no like for as little information as people who become addicted or struggle with substances as little information as they have before they enter the world of experimentation. Parents and loved ones have less information, there’s no What to Expect When You’re Expecting, right? For what happens if my kid or loved one gets into this unfortunate, like whole, like, spiral of addiction, it’s not there. And, you know, unless the treatment facility or therapist or whoever your loved one is working with gives you that information, how are we supposed to know it? Erica Exactly, we go based on our gut, sometimes our gut tells us to lose our minds when in reality, that’s not helpful. But we’ve all been there because no one no one knows until then no. And one of the I just want to say like, a very interesting thing to think about is everybody who goes into treatment at some point or another creates a relapse prevention plan for themselves where they identify triggers, internal, external, understand sort of the things that could lead to a potential relapse. And it’s generally in the form of a worksheet that people work through this, I would bet a lot of money, I’m not going to say a bunch, because I don’t know, but I would bet money on the fact that very few people share this worksheet with their family members and loved ones. So that’s an interesting thing to think about. Because here’s an incredible worksheet piece of information that could be so helpful for family when somebody comes home from rehab or treatment, but it’s never shared. Sometimes, that worksheet is thrown away before the person leaves the building, it’s happened to me, I’ve led workshops on it, and people thrown out their worksheets on their way out. I’m like, Oh, I created a workaround, where I made like a business card, relapse prevention plan, little creative, small card, and then I had people put in their wallets while they were in session with me. Erica So they couldn’t throw it away. But if we can, like understand all of these, you know, triggers and sort of understand the headspace. All of the things that could potentially lead to relapse or slip, it can help us feel empowered to like, interrupt or identify, they’re anxious, let me do something. Let me like, ask them how their anxiety is before it becomes something that they use alcohol to help quell or substances as well. So we need a relapse prevention plan just as much as I love one still, but we really never get that. So I love giving it to parents and loved ones, because it gives you a lot of really good information. Yeah, planning. Brenda That’s a brilliant idea to have a parent’s relapse prevention plan and a relapse response plan, I would say to have that prepared, because I’m, I’m wondering if you could give us some thoughts on your kind of, let’s say, we’re in the moment my kids been to treatment, they came home, it’s been three months, and I just found out that they’ve been smoking weed, you know, for I don’t know, let’s call it a couple of weeks, when I have to approach them about that. It’s obviously a delicate situation. How do I approach that so that I don’t immediately put them on guard immediately make them defensive? No, I’m not. No, I’m, you know, just you can tell I’m speaking from experience, I get it. What would be a good way to approach that? First of all, not to freak out, like, this whole thing just failed this whole entire thing that we just did and went through failed? Maybe you can give us some thoughts on how we could approach that in a better way? Erica I first think it’s important to take a beat, and have that mindset of respond versus react. Because if we react immediately to this new information, sometimes we don’t have enough time to sort of understand where it falls on the spectrum of like, this is so then to talk about versus like, you need to go back to inpatient treatment. So if you have like a beat to sort of look at what’s going on, you know how to enter I guess the conversation was a little more rational thinking I’ll say, and it’s always important to ask permission when you’re having a conversation or when you’re bringing something like this up. Erica If you walk into, you know, Timmy’s room and say, We need to talk. I just found weed. What are you doing? It’s not gonna go well. It’s not going to be a good conversation, they’re not going to feel like, collaborative, they’re going to feel attacked and immediately go on the defense. So you want to really create an environment where there’s a little curiosity, there’s no judgment, there’s an exploration of what’s been going on with this loved one, what’s what’s been happening in the past month, that has sort of led them to behaving in a certain way, noticing maybe behaviors that you’ve picked up on? Not necessarily pointing out, I found, you know, a joint that was like a ball of a joint in the front yard or whatever. Erica But you know, I’ve noticed that you haven’t been talking to us about your group recently, like, How’s it been going? What’s happening? We’ve noticed a little bit of X, Y, and Z, we’re not going to send you right back into treatment, necessarily, but like, we noticed that you’ve been smoking weed recently, what’s going on? Like, are you, you know, integrating that into your recovery plan? Or you’re talking to your therapist about it? Or is this like something that we need to look out a little more closely? I think having that like curiosity, is really helpful and sort of collaborative experience with it, is going to yield the best results. And when it comes to even just thinking about, like drug testing, if we think our, our kid or loved one has been using or, you know, drinking, or whatever it may be, they have been, you know, we know when we know. So if we know, then there’s no real point, say you need to do a drug test, right? Like I would say, like, eliminate anything possible that could create a sense of us versus them, because it, we really want it to be collaborative, and we don’t want to embarrass them. Brenda Yeah. And I think that’s so common is the drug testing in the Inquisition? And, you know, I can’t believe you’re doing this, I can’t believe this. You just came home? What didn’t you learn anything when you were there, if we go into this immediate kind of blaming place? So I like you’re right, framing that as curiosity, and I rather like the curiosity, what I heard is curiosity, no judgment, what’s been going on, which sounds a lot more inviting than you have been XYZ. Erica Yeah. And collaboration, you know, and that can be so important, because most likely, they’re already dealing with a sense of shame and guilt, which could have led to just relax in the first place. So what we really want to do is help build their self-efficacy, rather than tear it down. But that I mean, they’re, like our loved ones confidence in their ability to like, achieve goals that they set for themselves. And that’s a really important piece of being able to deal with sort of high risk situations for our loved ones. And there are ways that we as concerned family members and loved ones can help elevate our loved ones self-efficacy, and when we shamed them for slipping, relapsing, having a lapse, whatever verbage works for us and our loved ones, all it does is put them further away from having self-efficacy. And it reignites that I’m useless, like just that negative thinking that can just continue the spiral. It doesn’t help. Brenda Right, so we’re actually kind of digging them deeper into a hole. Right? If we’re doing that, Erica yeah, but we don’t know better. Brenda We don’t. And it’s so it’s such an emotional thing. So your idea of taking a beat. And I think, you know, for me, once I started learning some of this, sometimes that beat would be a day like, it wasn’t, yeah, five minutes, it was holy cow, I got to get some information here, call my therapist call back to his program, you know, take some time, because I figure if he’s smoking weed is going to do it tomorrow anyway. So it doesn’t really matter if I do this in five minutes, or if I do this in 24 hours. So I think that was just a learning that I had is, you feel this immediate urgency to like, jump on them about it. But holding back and really approaching it with this kind of thought that you just talked about, could be so much better. And the reality is, they may blow up anyway and push back and get defensive. So it’s not that this is a guarantee that it’s going to go well but it’s going to go better than the alternative is to say that’s true. Erica Yes, yes, definitely. And that day that we take, if we take a day that I agree sometimes in this day, sometimes two, sometimes reaching out to your support reaching out to their therapy, whoever we need to reach out to, but doing self care, before we approach whatever we’re about to approach, making sure that we’re in a good headspace, and that we have the capacity to, like, take this on is important too. Because if you enter it with an empty cup, let’s say, or your battery on low, then you’re not going to be able to like really have the presence that it is that is necessary to sort of have these kinds of difficult conversations. Brenda Right. It just takes a lot, it takes a lot of thinking. Erica And it takes a lot of work. It does. But I like to say if our loved ones are going to go into recovery and treatment and do all that work, we can do some work, too. And it’s hard. And it’s a lot of shift in the way that we are used to engaging with situations, but it is so worth it. Brenda Totally, because it just I don’t know, I think it just keeps a conversation flowing, where instead of that big kind of chasm between you and your kid, like I have no idea what’s going on with them. We can’t talk about anything, even if the conversations are hard and awkward, at least they’re still flowing. And then another question that I think that I get a lot and I hear a lot is okay, they haven’t relapsed, but I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And I find myself micromanaging him or her and I find myself constantly worrying, I am checking his backpack, I’m checking under her bed, I’m so suspicious. Like, I mean, some of that is self care. And I’m just wondering what other ideas you have for when they are doing okay, but we’re just waiting for the relapse to happen. Erica Right? Well, I mean, the idea of waiting for the other shoe to drop, I sometimes say like a shoe will drop, we don’t know what the shoe will be, but it will drop. So finding ways to sort of I regulate our own emotions. And with that self-care, a little bit of therapy to would be helpful. But we get into patterns when our loved ones are an active use of checking in searching and smelling and looking and all this stuff. And when they come home from treatment, it’s could be hard to sort of break those patterns. If we suspect something is going on. That’s one thing. But if it’s more of like a habitual, worrisome-based thing, that is another thing. Erica And one thing that can be really helpful is when our loved ones are doing well or, you know, in recovery, and maybe their program has like a family component having a conversation about your worries. And if I feel worried if I see this behavior happening, which in the past has indicated to me that you’re Hi, can I bring it up to you in this way? And is that okay? Will you become defensive? If you become defensive? How would you like me to approach this with you? Because it will be something that we approach, sort of like having a, again, like a pre-emptive conversation around if I noticed this, Do I have permission to bring it up with you, so that I don’t go through your thing so that I don’t go, rifling worrying, wondering, you know, calling x, y, and z, where are you all of that stuff? Is it okay if we have conversations about this, so that I don’t drive both of us and say, you know, going through this, and again, it’s sort of preparing for these things before they happen. Erica Because that ongoing suspicion can be toxic. And it’s hard to find the balance of where we observe where we like start searching where we, you know, start monitoring, use exec, etc, etc. But when we let them know off the bat that we want to support them and be collaborative and not punitive. And, again, I go back to that, like have that curiosity, that approach of curiosity, versus blaming and yelling and shaming, then it can help reduce our own worries, because we know that we can have conversations with our loved ones and if If we can’t, then at least it was something that was touched on. And we can know for ourselves like, alright, what are the next things that I’m going to do according to like my little plan that I’ve created for myself? Checking the backpack doesn’t make me feel better? What am I trying to get out of this? If I’m not getting anything good out of this? Erica What do I need to modify within myself so that I’m okay, having a conversation, having a moment of like fostering connection with our loved ones going for a walk, and saying, you know, I don’t want to look through your backpack, but I’m nervous, or, you know, winters here, ski trips are coming, let’s go through your jackets together to make sure there’s no pills in there, you know, these kinds of conversations can be helpful so that we’re not scrambling. But if it’s as a result of we know that they’re using, but we just need to find the proof. Sometimes we don’t need to, sometimes, again, when we know we know. And the proof is just like, this validation we need for ourselves, like I knew it. But do you really need to find that bottle of alcohol when you’re smelling it? You know, right? There’s a lot of things to consider. But I always think of sort of like giving it a beat gaming, a little bit of perspective, if you can, talking to someone about it, and then talking to our loved one in like a in a, in a healthy way, about what’s happening. Brenda So powerful, and so non-intuitive. So I’m glad that you took us through all that. Erica none of it is intuitive. I sometimes tell people that I work with, but like, there’s that book, Everyone Poops. And it’s like, when it comes to this, all of this stuff, like we all will have moments of being human and freaking out no matter how, like well versed you are and in craft, I know, I’ve had moments where I’ve freaked out at somebody, and they’ve been like, whoa, Erica, you’re certified craft therapist, use your communication skills. And I re-entered in a way that I feel like, okay, so I know, accepting responsibility that that was not helpful. So it’s like giving ourselves a little bit of grace to. But when it comes to sort of managing that worry, and fear and suspicion, having any sort of like planning helps mitigate that so much, because it sort of creates a little bit of predictability around something that we in the past have had no sense of predictability over. Brenda Yes, that is so so true. It feels good to have that. And again, if you never have to use it awesome. Oh, totally. But if you do, then it just changes the game as far as how you’re going to respond in that situation. So right, Erica like I just bought 15 at home COVID tests, I hope I never have to use them. But if I have to, I have them, Brenda And then that can provide its own level of kind of calm and comfort, because you know, you have a plan. Exactly. And so I love that I had never really thought about I’d heard of, you know, kids having coming out of treatment, having a relapse prevention plan. But I never thought about it from the parents standpoint of, oh, that’s actually something that I could prepare for as well. And like you said, to have the conversation with them to say, if this does happen, how are we going to handle it? And I would say that, as a parent, I could see how that it would be scary to even mention those words to my son or daughter coming out of treatment. Because it’d be like, Oh, if I say the word relapse, it’s going to happen. You’re facing the situation, but it’s so important. Because if it’s the big elephant in the room, ah, it just, yeah, that’s gonna be really hard. Erica Yeah. And when it comes to those, that kind of thinking, I like to sort of throw this out there like, will it be harder to say the thing that is hard to say? Or never say it and just see what happens and live in like that state of fear? Yeah, about it. So true. And also with like, the idea of the relapse prevention planning, like, I have a worksheet that I give to parents and loved ones. And I encourage them, if possible to go through it with the person that they’re supporting. And sit down and say, Alright, what are your external triggers? What are you know, your internal triggers, you know, what are the people places and things? How can I support you if this happens, and really sitting down and going through it with them so that they know that you’re tuned in and part of their support network? Kind of? Brenda Yeah, and I just feel so much better than them feeling like okay, I’m on my own and if I screw up my parents are going to be so disappointed and so ashamed of me, and so mad because I wasted all their money. I mean, these are all the things that go through their minds that are just so hard to deal with. So I love that plan. Why don’t you tell us just a little bit about wethevillage because I think that’s a resource that people should really know about, if they’re in the situation. Erica Yeah, so wethevillage.CO is an online platform for family members and loved ones of people who are supporting loved ones of people who are struggling with substance use. And it’s all sort of craft informed, there is a community website where it’s kind of like the q&a, Quora, or Reddit, if you will, for being concerned, significant other and asking sort of questions to the community. And we also offer coaching calls one on one coaching calls with craft certified therapists like me, we have an actual recovery coach. So if our loved ones want to speak with someone, let’s say post-rehab, but they don’t know where to start, they can, we can set them up with our recovery coach. And we also have weekly CRAFT skills groups that run for 12 weeks, 12 different topics. I’m currently kind of, I think, in the fourth week of the 12 week process with a group right now, where we go through all of the craft skills, from positive communication, to relax to treatment, etc. Erica And it’s something that is accessible, very affordable when it comes to CRAFT therapy and CRAFT resources. And you can join from anywhere, it’s all via zoom, it’s always been a digital thing. So it was never really an in person thing, it was always something that we did on Zoom, we have people from Mexico, we have people from the UK, New Zealand, Canada, all over the place, joining and learning the skills. And for a lot of these people, it’s their first time being in a group or zoom with others who are in similar situations. So it’s that support and community and also learning the skills that you need to help influence positive behavior change in your loved ones, and improve your life overall. And it’s really awesome, awesome stuff. And there’s a lot of really amazing worksheets and videos in the courses, and just a lot of awesome, awesome stuff. We the village, I will say, takes credit for really reigniting my love and passion for this space and the family aspect of it all. It’s really an incredible, incredible platform, I think, in my opinion. Brenda That’s so that’s great. So it’s wethevillage.co not com, right.co. And yeah, so definitely, if you’re listening, check that out. I think that’s great that you’ve got those, the 12 weeks to really, really dive into the craft skills that you need, and to be surrounded by other people who are doing the same thing is really helpful. Erica Yeah, and it’s like, you know, before each group, you’re given access to informational videos, worksheets, content, all this stuff. So when you come into the group, you already have the knowledge of what we’re going to be discussing for that week. We just go a little deeper, and you can ask questions. So you can read a book, you can, you know, learn about stuff. But this is a really like hands on way of getting into the craft world. And I’m not the only one who runs these groups. There’s a few running at a time with different facilitators. And it’s really an awesome offering. And I absolutely love it. Brenda That’s awesome. Wow, well, thank you for this. This is so helpful. It feels really good to have kind of a concrete plan and the ability I think the great thing for people listening to this episode is is hopefully you’re not in the moment right now. And if you aren’t so going to be helpful, but it feels good to be thinking about this while you’re not in it so that when it does happen or if it does happen, that you feel more in control. So thank you for joining me. Thank you for all the information way the village CO and Eric also has a private practice. So in the shownotes, I will put all that information if you are driving around or you’re out walking a dog and you can’t remember it, that’s no problem. I will put it in the show notes. Thank you for joining us. I’m sure we may have you back to talk about other crafty things. But I really appreciate you being here today. So thanks. Erica I love being here is awesome. Thank you so much. Brenda Thank you so much for listening. If you’d like to go to the show notes, you can always find those at At Brendazane.com/podcast, each episode is listed there with a full transcript, all of the resources that we mentioned, as well as a place to leave comments if you’d like to do that. You might also want to download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight: Three things I wish I knew when my son was addicted to drugs. It’s full of the information I wish I would have known when my son was struggling with his addiction. You can grab that at Brendazane.com/hindsight. Thanks again for listening and I will meet you right back here next week.