Why Your Attachment Style Matters When Parenting a Child Who Misuses Drugs or Alcohol, with Jack Hinman, Psy.D.

Hopestream for parenting kids through drug use and addiction
Hopestream for parenting kids through drug use and addiction
Why Your Attachment Style Matters When Parenting a Child Who Misuses Drugs or Alcohol, with Jack Hinman, Psy.D.
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ABOUT THE EPISODE:
If you could stand outside your own life, watching your family relationships play out like a movie, what patterns of behavior might you notice about yourself?  If you could see those patterns now, wouldn’t it be much easier to improve them each day?  In this episode, we try to understand ourselves and our family dynamics more deeply through the lens of attachment theory.

If you’re like me, you’d never heard attachment theory mentioned in recovery spaces or literature.  But my guest today believes it has an important role to play in the families of children using substances.

Jack Hinman has provided therapeutic support for young adults for two decades across a wide variety of settings – hospitals, wilderness therapy, residential centers, and community mental health settings.  Serving these different roles has provided him a holistic overview of the therapeutic experience, and has only solidified his belief that attachment theory can be a key component to improving stressful family dynamics.

Today we discuss the four attachment styles, their superpowers, how they affect our relationships with our kids and partners, and how we can change them for the better.

Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.  –  Aristotle

EPISODE RESOURCES:

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Brenda:
 0:06You are listening to Hope Stream. If you’re parenting a young person who misuses substances is in a treatment program or finding their way to recovery, you’re in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me. Brenda Zane, your host and fellow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So after the episode, head over to our website at Hopestreamcommunity.org. I’m so glad you’re here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let’s get into today’s show. Hey friend, glad to be here today and I’m really glad you’re taking some time to tap into resources that can help start to move you in a positive direction. With whatever your current situation is. If you haven’t already today, close your eyes for 30 seconds. Take a few really deep breaths. Sometimes we just need a reminder that it is okay to slow down and pause, get some oxygen into your body. I don’t want you getting to the point where your nervous system is on such high alert that you can’t slow down and just be. For a few minutes, that’s not good. So press pause right now if that’s helpful. Take a few deep breaths and then come back. Okay. You are going to be so glad you tuned in for this conversation today because it’s gonna help you understand yourself and your response patterns and how that impacts your parenting. You’ve likely heard the term attachment style. And in particular, you’ve probably heard about healthy or unhealthy attachment styles. And if you’re like me, you may not totally know what that means. So to clear it up, I turn to my guest today, Jack Hinman, to help us first understand what attachment actually is, and then to recognize our own attachment style or what he calls our personal operating system. Jack is the Co-founder and heads up admissions for Engage Young Adult Transitions, a therapeutic environment that is just footsteps away from Southern Utah University in Cedar City. Utah. The program’s purpose is to provide therapeutic support for young adults who are struggling with her mental health, which is limiting their ability to be independent. Jack has been providing mental health and administrative services to individuals and families in a variety of treatment settings, including hospitals, wilderness therapy programs, residential treatment centers, and community mental health for over 20 years. He’s a licensed clinical psychologist who’s a passionate and committed clinician in helping young adults cross that bridge into healthy and engaging independence. Jack’s Clinical foundations are driven in attachment theory and dialectical behavioral therapy. He served on the board of directors for the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs, and he has a local private practice where he primarily works with young students from the local community. I picked up so much valuable information from this conversation. I actually feel like I understand attachment now. And I am sure you will too. So take a listen. Here is Jack Hinman and me talking about attachment and how it impacts every relationship we have. Enjoy. Welcome, Jack to Hope Stream. So thrilled to have this conversation. I know I kind of stalked you after a conference last October that we met in San Diego and a couple people said, oh, if you wanna do a podcast on attachment, you gotta get Jack. So here we are. So welcome.
Jack:
 4:19That’s cool. I feel I’m excited. I’ve been looking. It’s been in my. Calendar for 2024 to do this podcast and to reconnect with you Brenda and, and talk about attachment. Like I probably drive everybody crazy about attachment. I like I was telling my my spouse this morning and like, oh, I’m gonna do this podcast this morning. And she’s like, oh my gosh, it’s probably gonna be about attachment. Like, yes, it’s gonna be about attachment. And I was at at Engage this morning telling people I’m doing a podcast this morning. They’re like, oh, it’s going to be about attachment. Yes, it is gonna be about attachment and we’re gonna talk about attachment today, which I’m super excited about. They’re like,
Brenda:
 4:57okay, here we go. Yes. I think it’s such a great topic because personally like, I don’t know, I just think it’s nothing that I ever learned about, even while my son went through all of his treatment and you know, he went to wilderness and residential and then back and forth and back and forth. I don’t honestly ever remember anybody talking to me about attachment style for myself or him. So I think it’s really important, and I think there’s a misperception that if you’re talking about attachments, you’re probably talking about adopted kids or babies. Maybe that’s a launching point. You could help dispel that.
Jack:
 5:35Even clinicians and psychiatrists and the people in the field of mental health is kind of like. Only put attachment in that kind of adoption and also early development, kind of like framework, however. I’m seeing a notable shift in the field of mental health around attachment. Yeah, it’s technically old school kind of therapy, but it but I’m seeing really like Esso, Perel which everybody knows I love Esso Perel. Yeah. Couples therapy. Like now a lot of couples, therapists are moving in the world of attachment because it’s such a great. Like framework or lens to really conceptualize like relationships and conflicts and relationships and everything too. So I kind of fell in that, in that category too, like long time, years and years ago I was working with a adopted kid. I owned a family and didn’t know anything about attachment. So I was like clueless about attachment, working with an adopt like a family who has adopted a kid. And I feel like I really missed about working with him. And I was like, man, I never wanna do that again. And so. I made a connection with an interventionist and she happened to be adopted, and it just happened to be timing for us to meet, like, Hey, let’s do a presentation on adoption and addiction. And, and then that was kind of like the, the kind of stepping stone for me and an attachment. And what I really love about attachment, it applies to all of us. It applies to the therapeutic kind of space, it applies to just understanding a parenting. I mean, it, it, ’cause once again, we all have development. We’ve all developed, we’ve all had some form of like a parenting experience and we’ve all had an early life experience that’s shaped us who we are today. And, and so understanding how that shaped us and understanding our patterns is applies to everybody no matter if you. In therapy or not therapy. And so we’re all, all of us are interacting with other human beings, like as a parent or in the workspace or, or in relationships with people. And understanding that can provide a lot of insight and awareness about how we operate relationally. Right.
Brenda:
 7:44You’d said earlier, we really can look at attachment as a lens. To understand ourselves, our relationships, how we interact. But could you, just for the lay people in the room, what is attachment? Like if you were to just give us a definition just so that at least we’re all starting from kind of a baseline. So
Jack:
 8:03it’s attachment theory, early life experiences that shape kind of our, like our identity. It shapes, the way we see the world, it shapes if we feel safe in the world or secure, feel insecure in the world. It shapes the way, like the reasons why we seek out relationships. It shapes the stress we feel in relationships and it also shapes the patterns that we manage, that stress in relationships. And so it’s kind of like our brain develops the most, the first two years, 70% of your brain has developed the first two years. So like that critical. Opportunity with a, like a parental figure shapes our brain. It shapes our neurology. It’s like the foundation of our house and then everything is kind of built upon that. And, and it, when I’ll talk about attachment and I’ll, and I’ll share different attachment styles today. They’re not like pathological diagnostic labels. Like being an insecure attachment doesn’t mean you automatically are gonna have a mental health diagnosis. I mean, yes, having insecure attachment definitely creates a precursor for like mental health struggles or relationship struggles. But it’s not like a bad, it’s not a label. We don’t choose. Our attachment styles, our life experiences shape our attachment, but we do have the choice. I. To do the work to shape our attachment in a healthy way. Some people believe that, oh, your attachment style is this way and you can never change. There’s research indicate that’s not true. Your attachment style can shift, can change evolve over time. It can shift and. In different ways, it can shift in more secure ways or more insecure ways based on your life experiences and so, and so, understanding your style will help you understand the re, the stress you feel in relationships and then how you deal with that stress.’cause then you can now, hey, this is my pattern. Knowing about our patterns, how we deal with stress is I think probably 70% of the therapeutic work. And, and so just knowing about our pattern and able to like manage our patterns. And so that’s why I really love attachment theory because it gives that framework for all of us. And so
Brenda:
 10:17you said there’s, there’s certain types of attachment. So how would, as an adult, how, if I wanted to learn what my attachment style was, how would I go about doing that?
Jack:
 10:28The Attachmentproject.com is a like a nonprofit website. It’s taken like a, it’s called a relationship questionnaire, which is an empirical base measure on attachment, and you could take it online, so you can just get on it. You can just get on Attachment.com and take the survey, and it will give you a pretty robust report of your attachment styles. It will like, it will put your attachment on a continuum. Okay. And the reality is you’ll, you’ll understand is that I have a different attachment style with different pe, different kinds of people in my life and even can even help you understand your attachment to even in if your parents have passed away. Being in a in a relationship is work in good work, healthy work and knowing. And so with couples, I, I think it’s really great for couples to understand. Like the other’s attachment style.’cause then they can, they can understand like what’s gonna make this person be anxious in our relationship? And then, and how are we gonna like, navigate growth and health in our relationship? And so yeah, I really heavily encourage people to take the attachment project and, and and I, and it’s really fascinating over course of like, of like being involved in a therapeutic experience or opportunity or community. It’s really cool to see your attachment. Evolve. And so I’m a believer like deep quality, deep therapy work is really adjusting your attachment in a more secure way. That’s deep therapy. You know,
Brenda:
 11:59the, the folks who are listening here are all mostly all parents or their, they’re, you know, caregiver for a teen or a young adult who’s struggling with substance use, struggling with mental health, you know, so I, I went through this with my son. I start noticing that he’s going off the rails and I had one very different reaction to it than my husband and from my ex who is the father of the boy who’s going off the rails. Is that sort of all rooted in that attachment style that we all reacted and dealt with it in a different way?
Jack:
 12:37A hundred percent. That is extremely like heart wrenching. Stressful, overwhelming, and, and the, and the, and the kind of stress you feel in that dynamic is gonna be related to your attachment style and, and then how you’re gonna deal with it. So knowing that, knowing that, Hey, when my kid is struggling, ’cause also when your kid is struggling, most likely. The relationship is gonna be very tenuous between you and your child. It’s like your, your child’s gonna feel disconnected from you and you’re gonna feel disconnected. And then, and then, then how do you, so the key is that like there’s four, there’s four attachment styles. There’s, there’s preoccupied avoidant, disorganized, and secure. So preoccupied, is that like how, it sounds like you’re super preoccupied about that relationship. Some people call it anxious attachment. Anxious attachment, but in reality. Avoidant attachment cell is anxious attachment. Disorganized attachment is anxious attachment. So you have secure, secure and anxious. And then the, now these are the three types of anxious attachment. And so, so preoccupy means I feel really anxious. I feel very unsecure. I feel unsettled when I feel disconnected. So when your chi, when your, when your child is struggling. They’re gonna push you away. They’re gonna like, they’re gonna struggle, they’re gonna retreat, so you’re gonna feel disconnected and that can bring up a lot of stuff for you. And so, and, and your degree of anxiety is gonna be related to that. And then your degree of personalization is gonna be related to that. And so a personal is preoccupied is like, they’re vigilant. They’re always like looking around, vigilant around the relationship. So, and they’re very sensitive to disconnection. And so even, even normal development of a teen can trigger a preoccupied attached parent like you think about it. What’s, what’s the main thing a teenager should be working on? As a teen, what, what should they
Brenda:
 14:50be doing? Getting away from their parents?
Jack:
 14:54Yes. So you have a preoccupied parent that’s gonna like, make them anxious. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And, and you’re, and you’re gonna personalize it. What am I doing wrong? As a parent, a preoccupied attached person is gonna like, internalize it. So that’s what triggers you. But then a preoccupied attached parent, what they do is they lean into the relationship. Like when they feel anxious, I get like, they actually start smothering, they start maybe trying to pull them in more. And, and, and that can be very polarizing to a healthy teen or to an unhealthy teen. And so knowing that about yourself, like knowing that, hey, I’m a preoccupied person. My kid is going to trigger my attachment system. Pretty easily. And, and so you’ll see parents seeking validation from their kids, has trouble holding boundaries has trouble trusting their kid. I mean, there’s a lot of things, but knowing that, so just knowing that alone be like, it makes you pause, okay? So you’re sitting your kid, your kid maybe disconnects and you could sit there and pause for it and think like, okay, is this really about me? Or is this, was there something really going on in the relationship? Right. But there’s also like, I call ’em superpowers. There’s also superpowers of our preoccupied parent. The reality is, like I said, we don’t choose our attachment style, but we can choose how to work on shaping it and we can choose how we use it. But there’s some really good, healthy superpowers that a preoccupied parent does. Like they’re gonna be like vigilant about. When there’s like, like when the relationship maybe shifts with their child and so they may be gonna be proactive in responding that way. And so then you have avoidant an avoidant person gets overwhelmed by connection. They get overwhelmed by intimacy. They’re overwhelmed by emotion. They’re pretty disconnected from themselves emotionally at times. And so having a child struggling to be the other way around, they need have more needs. I don’t, I hate the word needy. And so they’re not needy. They’re just, they have more needs. And so an avoidant parent, they get overwhelmed by other people’s emotions. So, so even your child’s struggling, seeing them struggle, seeing them like being an anguish, like can be triggering for an avoidant parent. And what they do is they shut down. The key is, is that. Being aware of your patterns, you know how to respond, have a secure response. So,
Brenda:
 17:25okay, that makes a ton of sense. And I can see how, especially in a marriage or a partnership, if you’ve got two very different. Attachment styles that could be its own disaster waiting to happen. Especially as you’re dealing with a crisis with a child at risk. I can just see how that would be like having this information and knowing, oh, this is how I would typically respond, but I get to choose how I respond instead. Just that information alone would be really powerful. It seems like.
Jack:
 17:59Knowing your partner’s patterns and knowing your pattern and owning that pattern, you’ll, you see a lot of like, of like a lot of preoccupied and avoidant people get together and, and of course the preoccupied person wants more, like they want more outta a relationship. The avoidant person goes like, man, I’m giving all I can, gosh. Like they want more and more and then they, and they’re in that space. But, but, but if you want the relationship to work and you really, truly love that person, you’re gonna realize, okay. I’m married to a, an avoidant person. I have to be, I have to work on leaning too much in, and they have to work on being like, Hey, I’m an avoidant person. I’ve gotta start taking risk and leaning more in. So just knowing that about each other is like half the battle. Then you throw in kids, even kids who are not struggling will, like, will, will highlight those patterns because like a preoccupied parent could be. Why is, why is Johnny more connected to, to him and not me, like, what’s going on? Like there could be some jealousy in the family dynamics around relations to your kids and, but as a secure parent, you’re okay with that? I’m secure with myself. I’m in, I’m getting married because. I just want get married.’cause I want, I want to be connected. I wanna be in a relationship as a secure parent. I’m having kids because I just, I wanna have kids like, because I wanna bring life into this world and I wanna see somebody grow into their own person. That’s a secure motivation of a parent. Why having children or a secure parent getting married. But a person who is in a preoccupied or anxious attachment style is that they’re seeking relationships. For security. Mm-Hmm. And so Brenda, you know, like what that happens when people like seek relationships for security usually doesn’t go well. Yeah. We’ve seen that people, we’ve seen that with our friends or in ourselves or people we’ve dated in our life. Like they, they have to be in a relationship that feels secure. Hey dads, if your child is struggling with substances and mental health, you’re not alone. You’re in a club no one wants to be a part of. And we know the fear, confusion and frustration can be overwhelming. That’s where the Woods community comes in. The Woods is a completely private 100% confidential digital refuge, where you’ll find resources and educational content that can help you navigate the intricate challenges of substance use. Learn strategic approaches to support your child more effectively. Benefit from the expertise of guest speakers. Engage in live discussions and connect with other dads who understand exactly what you’re going through. Try it free for two weeks to see if it’s a good fit for you. After this episode, visit Thewoodscommunity.org and become part of our group. Now let’s dive back into the show.
Brenda:
 21:06There’s kind of a guilt factor for, at least for me, and I know for a lot of parents where we’re like, oh man, I totally screwed up my kid. Like that template that I put down when they were newborn to three years old, not ideal did I just screw up my kid forever because we know those first two, three years are so critical. I personally think about like I had to go back to work at three months, drop my son off at a daycare. I don’t know this lady, I don’t know what she’s doing with him for eight hours a day. Like there’s just a kind of a guilt layer. I think that that can sit on top of this, where as we’re thinking about. Ourselves, but also our kids and looking at our kids who are struggling and like, did I create that? I don’t know. It just like that was what I was feeling inside. As you’re talking, I’m just having this like anxiety about my daycare that I dropped my kid off
Jack:
 22:02at, which says a lot about your attachment. Oh it does? Well, yeah, in a good way, like. You’re mindful about relationships, Brenda, like your drive to do these podcasts, even like how good you are at doing this podcast has like, has probably to relate to your attachment, where you’re aware, you’re, you’re excited about relationships. Even the idea of like thinking like Guilt can be. Could be a healthy thing. Like guilt is just, you’re mindful, you’re just caring about the relationship, you’re caring about your impact on people around you. Right. Which, like, once again, like, I don’t wanna demonize or, or make these detachment styles pathological. It’s just that it’s our style. But that also is a double edged sword, being super concerned about relationships. We also take on that too. We can become pleasers, we can have probably like shame, unhealthy guilt and stuff like that. But the thing is that like that is what’s also makes you a good person too. I don’t think everybody’s like secure all the time. You can, you can come in quote unquote secure and something rocks you a death of a child. Can rock a secure person, a divorce, or even just a, a really difficult work experience. Mm-Hmm. Like, we forget like how many hours a day that we’re spending at work versus how many hours a day we spent with our kids and our like spouses and the people in our, we might have a boss that was like. Really toxic over a long period of time, it starts shaping our attachment. Hmm. And so the thing is like, yeah, nobody’s perfect. Nobody has a secure attachment. I have a tendency to fall in the preoccupied category. Makes sense. I’m a therapist. Like they wanna help people. They like talking like they, like, they wanna be part of the interpersonal experience and, and I think my preoccupied attachment style has been my success. Like that superpower. Yeah. Superpower. I was that only child that kind of had to figure it out how to like, and had, had a, had a disruptive family experience and, and so I had to go out in the world and make my attachments, maybe my, my development made me preoccupied, which made me seek out relationships and was overly concerned about relationships. And I was the kid that was like the fun kid that had parties at his house and was friends with everybody and, and, but that was my survival mechanism. I. Then I packed it up. I didn’t realize it became a psychologist. And I love connecting with people. I love talking about attachment. I love like going to conferences and, and, and that’s been my success. Like my preoccupated attachment style has been my, been my success. But, but then having these secure friends and, and a secure like marriage and all these things have helped me move, who’ve been my healing into moving more in a secure place.
Brenda:
 24:58How would I know if I’m interacting with somebody, what are the telltale signs that like, ah, that’s a secure person?
Jack:
 25:07I love your question because I think therapy is really good about, like, it can be really good about identifying patterns, but not really helping understand a person what to do first off. There are some awesome clinicians out there on Instagram and TikTok and those places are put putting out some really awesome content about what, what a secure response is. And because when you’re preoccupied or disorganized or avoiding, you don’t know what a secure response is like you like. Like you don’t know. So how do you learn that? And so the thing is, is starting to learn more about secure attachment. Like there’s a clinician at a Montana, man, I wish I can think of her name right now, but she is called the sec the secure relationship. She puts out phenomenal content and, and like focuses on like secure, like what a secure attachment style look like in relationships. And so, yeah, so the key is like, is educating the person about their attachment. This is your pattern. This is what, for example, I love using, like, texting is a really good example about how our attachment style drives, how we text. And so for example, as a person who’s preoccupied. Might send a text to somebody and they don’t get a response in an adequate time. It’s gonna send their anxiety through the roof and then might start texting it incessantly. And then now they’re driving the person crazy. And the person on the other end is like, holy heck, I’m at work. Like, right, like I’m focusing at work right now. Like I’m busy and they’re not, and that, and they’re, they’re texting maybe a secure person and that secure person’s like really focus on them like the task at hand, right? Like the person’s like, Hey. I’m at work, I’m focusing on that. I don’t need to respond to this person because I’m good. I’m good with them. I’m secure. I don’t need to, to let them know that I’m, I could see their texts, but the person on the other end who’s anxiously attached is like, what’s going, like, did I do something wrong? Right? Like, did I piss ’em off this morning or whatever. So knowing what a secure person, person would do around texting and be like, they would be like, okay, I sent a text. They’re probably busy. They’re at work, or they’ll get back to me when they can. And, and they’re not, they’re not, they like, they move on from it. And so the thing is like, so this, the key is this understanding what a secure, like a secure attachment, like secure attachment looks like and how that kind of responds. Like they communicate directly. They feel whole like in the relationship with people, like they’re not wanting more and more. Mm-Hmm. Like, like in the relationship. They’re flexible. They’re able to like, hold on their, like, their beliefs and hold on the other person’s beliefs, like I was in group with with some young people this recently and I talked about attachment in politics, the way people can hold their belief system and listen to somebody else’s belief system. I believe really relates to attachment. Mm-Hmm. Interesting. You don’t get threatened. I’m not threatened by somebody else’s point of view. I’m good with mine. I’m secure. Like I’ll, I run an attachment group with young adults and I’ll pull all this great content from like Instagram and talk about like a secure response. And we talk about texting, we’re talking about technology, we talk about workplace. So yeah, you have to be explicit about what a secure response look like. What a secure parenting looks like. Let’s say you have a. They come home, they talk about a crazy idea of like what they want to do or crazy belief system they have. A parent is able to like, okay, tell me like, tell me more. I’m curious. I’m curious about like, about this. And they’re able to like hold tight and they’re able to like help. Then they like, they don’t react. They just kind of like, they’re curious. A secure parent is curious how they, how they respond to things. What, let’s say a situation arises, let’s say you find your kid. You find a vape pen or you find like cannabis in their room, like a secure parent is like, okay, I need to get more information. They’re gonna be like, okay, I need to be, I’m gonna be a detective. I wanna be an like, I wanna find out more information. What’s going on here? So they’re asking questions, they’re curious, they’re open-minded, they’re flexible. They don’t jump to conclusion is a secure parent. They’re asking like, okay. They, they have cannabis in their room. They might ask the question, what does my child need in this situation? Wow. What do they need? Yeah. Okay. Versus like, oh, I wanna come down hard on them and consequence ’em for finding cannabis in their room. But what do they need? What kind of support do they need in this situation? I think a lot of times as parents, we just are so reactive. We feel like we have to make a decision in the moment right then and. Versus trying to find out like what, where, and why, and how about cannabis. It could, it could have been a friend that left it in the room or they could have been like, they’re whatever they, they did because they wanna, they bought it because they want to be a cool, they wanna make friends or they bought it because they’re feeling overwhelmed. I mean, there’s a different response, how to deal with cannabis in your room based on what’s driving the cannabis use or things like that. And or, and so I think it’s like, what? Like what does my kid need? Another question you wanna ask is. What does this relationship need right now? Hmm. So if I find cannabis in my child’s room, what is the relationship need? Wow. I probably need to listen right now. My kid is struggling right now, and so a secure parent is able to pivot, and a secure parent is also attuned. They know their kid. Another thing too is like be a secure parent means. What kind of boundaries do I need to hold right now? How can I love my child and hold a boundary? When my kids were little and they did something and we had to like consequence ’em or whatever, like as little kids, and they were really upset and I was upset too. But no matter what, at the end of the day when we’re putting ’em in bed, when they were mad at me and I’m mad at them and we’re still hugging each other. I’m saying, yes, you’re still grounded tomorrow and good night, and I love you. Aw. Like I’m, I’m, I’m we’re. And my kid’s like, yeah, I love you too, but I’m mad at you. Right. Like, like that’s security. Like where I can love you and, and, and hold a boundary. And, and a lot of times we don’t know what that is until we’re really get into it. Yeah.
Brenda:
 31:40Those are really, really helpful examples because I think a lot of us are aspiring to get there. Right. And we’re working on. Being calm in the moment and we’re working on not taking it personally and not thinking, oh my gosh, my kid has cannabis in his room. I’m a terrible mom. I screwed all this up if I wouldn’t have let him do this, or if I, you know, all the million things we run through in our heads. So I think that’s very helpful. I love what you said about like being curious and just, and maybe is that some of the work, like if I’m trying to shift my, my attachment. To use some of these tools to say, okay, wait, normally I would panic, but instead I’m gonna try and get curious. Like, is that the like little baby steps that you take to start shifting your, your style?
Jack:
 32:32I think the number one parenting skill is emotional regulation. Yeah. I like, I’ve worked with like lots of parents over the years and when I’m in session with them, when they we’re in a regulated state, I. They get, they know, they know what the right response is. They know, they know to, they know to be curious. They know they need to listen. They need know, like they know they need to validate, like all those really crucial like parenting skills. And so they know it like most parents like know, the key is regulation and your attachment style impacts how regulate, how dysregulated you get and how quickly dysregulated you get. So the key is this being regulated.’cause when you’re, when you’re emotionally regulated. You can take in more information. Mm-Hmm. Because when you’re dysregulated really focusing on what you’re thinking and what you’re feeling, you can’t take in new information. And to be truly curious, you’ve gotta be regulated. You gotta like, listen, you gotta comprehend and really, really pick up on what my kid is really saying. Like, they, they got a vape pen of cannabis because they were, wanted to try it. Like I’ve, like, I just didn’t know. It was like, I wanted to see what it felt like. So then as a curious parent, you’re like, tell me how you felt when you, when you were vaping. Like what, what, how did it make you feel? What’d you think? The more information you have as a parent, you’re gonna know how know what the best course of action is to respond, right? Because then they’re like, okay, let’s talk about it. Like, do you have a plan to continue to use this vape? Our kids will walk into what they need to do naturally too. If you’re curious, they look like, oh yeah, I, I feel weird, or I don’t like the way I think or feel, or I’m worried I’m gonna get addicted to it.’cause I know our family history has addiction and I’m worried it’s gonna affect like the, like Yeah. So like what do you, what do you wanna do now? Like, so you, they, they’ll walk into it. The key is, I think sometimes we just. We just, I feel like we have to respond right now. And so like just regulating yourself is so crucial. I think it’s the number one parenting skill. So
Brenda:
 34:41let’s say a parent’s mom and dad are walking into your office for some work. What tells you? I think they’re fairly emotionally regulated.
Jack:
 34:51There’s always gonna be a degree of personalization, like personalizing how our kids are doing based on our self-worth. I. Like it’s impossible. Like a secure parent is still gonna base how well their kid’s doing based on the self-worth. But how much, okay, like how much, how intense is your self-worth based on that? And I think a lot of times, like a dysregulated parent, I. It takes things very personal in a sense. Okay. I think they’re, they’re, how quick are they to jump to conclusions? Like making, make assumptions, personalizing. If a parent’s able to sit back and go realize that, like, Hey, I know I have a good relationship with my kid and I really, I really hate seeing them struggling. But I’m still in this, I’m still not giving up. And they’re able to somehow create a, a dialogue about themselves where like, I know I’m a good person because I show up. And to me, you don’t need to be an Uber intelligent parent. My kids. I know for a fact IQs are like way higher than mine. Like I’m average IQ and I’m like, I’m like using every little IQ point I can every, every moment of the day right to, to make this work. But I see my kids are like off the charts. They’re super intelligent. But the thing is like you don’t have to be in crazy intelligent to be a good parent. You just gotta be regulated and secure.
Brenda:
 36:21Perfect. Perfect way to wrap it up. I would love to know just before we, before I let you go, what do you love most about what you do?
Jack:
 36:29I love seeing people. Get to a place of being authentic and being genuine with themselves, that then seeing their authentic self reveal itself. And then they just soar.’cause then now they’re, they have authentic relationships and they’re, they’re feeling comfortable, they’re feeling more safe. And, and then, and then they’re wanting to, to kind of like. Take risk and be more vulnerable and, and, and challenge themselves in lives and, and try going to school or trying to go into work or trying something different. And so I think just watching people find their authentic self is what really kind of gets me up in the morning.
Brenda:
 37:10Love it. Love it. Jack, thank you so much for bringing all this enlightenment to us. Now we have some goals to work toward, but thanks for clearing up a lot of. I think what are misperceptions and and misunderstandings about attachment and we’ll make sure and get links to you in the show notes. So if you wanna get in touch with Jack and engage then you’ll be able to find that there. And thanks for joining me, I appreciate it. Thanks Brenda. Okay my friend. That is it for today. Remember, you can find all the guest information and resources we talked about in the show notes and those are at brendazane.com forward slash podcast. We also have some playlists there that we created for you, like the top 10 episodes, coaching episodes, recovery stories, all the good stuff. And if you haven’t already, you may wanna download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight. Three things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It’ll give you some insight as to why your child might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through the rough times. I. You can download that free from brendazane.com Forward slash hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. Stay strong and be very, very good to yourself, and I will meet you right back here next
Jack:
 38:32week.

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