Wilderness Therapy for Teens and Young Adults: A History and Considerations for Parents with Will White, DA, MSW

Brenda  01:42
Welcome to today’s episode, I am really excited to share my guest for today’s episode and the information because I think that wilderness therapy is a very very confusing topic for parents to think about and consider – there is controversy about whether it’s safe or not, there’s just a lot of questions. And I think parents need to have all of the information at their fingertips to be able to consider whether wilderness therapy might actually be the right choice for their child depending on what’s going on.  So in looking for a guest for this episode, I wanted to make sure that I got somebody who could really give the facts from the roots of wilderness therapy, where it came from, and really give us a really good context for where this type of therapy grew from, what kinds of options there are with wilderness therapy, and just to give a really balanced view of it, and so, my guest today is that person, it took a while to find and schedule him but I do have a great conversation with Will White who is the Co-owner and Outreach Director of Summit Achievement and Summit Traverse. Will received his master’s of social work from the University of Denver and also his doctorate degree in leadership from Franklin Pierce University. And he’s been a clinical licensed social worker and alcohol and drug abuse counselor for over 25 years. So well has been around and seen it all and done it all. And he also is one of the people in the industry who’s really a sought after speaker on the topic of adventure in wilderness therapy. And he also has his own podcast. It’s called Stories From the Field: Demystifying Wilderness Therapy. I think you’re going to be really amazed to hear the background of where this industry came from, as well as some just really, really practical tips from him for parents who might be looking at this as an option. So with that, I will let you hear my really great conversation with Will. 
Welcome, Will White I am so, so thrilled to have you on the podcast. You’re sort of a legend in the field of wilderness therapy. And so I give you so many thanks for being with me today.
Will  04:25
Thank you, Brenda, and you’re too kind.
Brenda  04:29
Well, I I really mean it. It’s so important for me to bring credible resources to parents. And one of the things that I know when I was going through this several years ago, about six, seven years ago was just you never know, when you’re looking, you know, you spend so much time googling he spent so much time trying to find resources and you just never know who’s the real deal and who’s not. So that’s why I work really hard on this podcast to find And the people who are the real deal and who have the deep expertise and so you fit the bill there. So, before we get started, I like to let my listeners get to know my guests just a little bit more on the personal side before we dive into everything that you do professionally. And so I love to ask if you would be so kind to share with us. What did you have for breakfast this morning?
Will  05:23
I what I have every day I have a bowl of oatmeal with blueberries and homemade granola. 
Brenda  05:33
Whoa, you’ve got all of the healthy things in there.
Will  05:38
Yeah, this is the time of year we need or – I’m a creature of habit that way.
Brenda Zane  05:44
How long have you been having your oatmeal?
Will  05:47
Well, it’s been at least half a decade.
Brenda  05:54
Okay, wow. Well, that’s been a while. So it’s really interesting. I find that a lot of people are definitely creatures of habit when it comes to breakfast. I don’t know what that is, it seems like we always switch up our lunch and dinner more frequently. But most everybody I speak with has a sort of very set pattern with her breakfast, whether that’s a beverage or whether that’s what they eat. So very interesting, but it sounds like you’re on a very healthy path. So thank you for sharing that. And so well, maybe you can just give us some background on you and your career, like how did you end up in this field? It’s so interesting. And give us a little bit of your path here.
Will  06:40
Well, there’s many different trail up the mountain of wilderness therapy I have. I think I like to educate people that many of us were influenced to be in the outdoor field or the wilderness therapy field because we may have have grown up going to summer camps where may have been involved with scouting, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, etc. The men been more of a experiential person and who would like to run around in the woods and be out there climbing and skiing, etc. So that’s much my background, but that’s not what I went for my career. I actually got my MSC Master’s in social work in 1987 at the University of Denver. I ended up moving back to the East where I had grown up to the northeast and I worked as a clinician at a mental health center for a number of years. Then I was an outpatient clinician, and all my spare time I would always be skiing or hiking or climbing, rock climbing. And then I started to do more high end expeditions and bigger adventures. And my career was being a clinician. And the more time I did these expeditions with friends, I would see tremendous change.  So, I took a year off and traveled around the world and climbed and studied Eastern philosophy, etc. I came back and I got invited by a friend to be work at a boarding school as a therapist, and I really enjoyed being the therapist at this boarding school because like, wow, I’m not just seeing someone, an adolescent in my office, I get to see them, I get to be with them and form a relationship because we lived in dorms, and you did sports and you eat together and it’s like, hmm, I’m really in this meal you versus when I was outpatient or I worked in residential treatment where you go in for so many hours and then you leave, right, and at any boarding school, you don’t have one job you have two or three, right? If you’re a dorm parent, you’re also a coach. You’re also a teacher and I ran the outdoor program at the school, and I was a therapist and help them dorms. And I’ll tell you I saw more profound change on the young people that I would do outdoor trips with, then I did in the office as the therapist and like, wow, this is really, really the stuff that’s happening is out there in the world, like doing the outdoor experiences, the more challenging the more you see what’s really going on for someone.
Brenda  09:38
What kind of changes were you see you were that you that were so noticeable?
Will  09:42
The main thing is when you get away from all the distractions, you are all the influences and you’re out there climbing together, and you’re focused at the moment on the moment. When you step away from a big adventure, you sit back and you’re sitting around the fire people more like, I want to tell you a story. And they’re more or less sharing about who they really are, and how they really deal with stress. Or you can see how they project onto others, or say I’m not good enough, etc. And so it was, they were showing out and throwing out that distraction. Now.  I developed a program at this boarding school for kids who had finished wilderness therapy programs that were primarily in the West in Utah area. And they would come to this northeast boarding school and I developed a transitional program called Prep for Success and they would go come to the school 10 days before and we would go on the Appalachian Trail for 10 days. And we would really help make the transition from a therapeutic environment to a traditional boarding environment, helping them coach from life because they were fully immersed in therapy in the wilderness therapy programs in Utah. And going to a traditional boarding school is a little bit different. You’re not talking all the time, but you’re feeling so she asked to work on your schoolwork, etc. So I created this program. It got a number of people heard about it and some people and then in the area where I lived, heard about and said, Hey, we’re going to start a wilderness therapy program in Maine, called Summit Achievement. We actually hadn’t even come up with a name, but we’re going to start a wilderness therapy program in Maine and we want you to join the startup team. 
And so I did, and that was in 1996. And the program’s called Summit Achievement.  I’ve been a wilderness therapist. I was a clinical director for 16 years there for a while I was the CEO and now I’m more tell the story of some of the educate people about the field of wilderness therapy. And some its main because it’s more of a hybrid wilderness therapy. programming that students go out into the field. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, but they come back to our base, which is a residential facility, Sunday afternoon, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, and they’re going to school and they’re seeing their therapist, and they’re doing family work, etc. So it’s a hybrid model in my in the 90s, so that was ‘96. And when I turned 47, I think it was I had a little bit of a midlife crisis and decided to go on and get my doctorate degree while I was working on Summit. And when you’re working on a dissertation, they asked you to fill in a gap of information. Fill in part of what is missing in knowledge in what I realized there was a gap in knowledge is how did wilderness therapy evolve in the United States. states. And so I created I wrote a dissertation and it was called Stories From the Elders: Chronicles and Narratives from the Early Years of Wilderness Therapy that came out. You can get it on Google. It came out I was 2011. And then I followed it up in 2015, with a book called Stories From the Field, a History of Wilderness Therapy. And now I have a podcast called Stories From the Field: Demystifying Wilderness Therapy. So part of my academic work has been to educate people on the long history of wilderness therapy, how it evolved in the United States, and how it is continuing to help young people more and more
Brenda  13:49
that that is quite a history and no joke that you’ve you’ve been there from the beginning and no, all of that was just so helpful. It’s I think, It’s great to know that this isn’t just some fly by night, you know, fad that has popped up and and, you know, kids are being sent out because I think that is a fear, you know, for any parent who’s looking for resources. You know, is this going to be a good experience? Is this going to be safe? And is there science behind it? And clearly there is if you get with the right program.
Will  14:25
Right, and there’s more and more research than ever before. There are really eight key influences on wilderness therapy. Some people refer to it certainly in the field itself is outdoor behavioral health care. But the influence the field, the wilderness therapy, first evolved by summer camps. And then and many of us who went to summer camps can relate how that was when we were young. We can say Wow, that was such a profound experience when I was young person. And then then summer camps moved In the therapeutic camps were was taking young people who have therapeutic issues and provide therapists with them to go to summer camp, and that actually started in 1922. So it’s not new. And then you see mountaineering style expeditions wilderness programs, and you can see that really evolving in the 60s and Outward Bound. And now we’re bound moved into some more therapeutic populations. And then in Utah, a former our down instructor started, what is called a primitive skill school of wilderness therapy. And that first started at Brigham Young University in the 60s. Then you see in the 70s, much more professionalism with the Association for Experiential Education and the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Council. And by the 80s, more and more scholarly research is coming out. And that later 80s and early 90s, there starts to be much more controversies related to the field. And you can still see much of that in doing Google searches, etc. Because it’s very sensational, but there certainly has been controversies related to the field of wilderness therapy. Justice, there have been controversies with any populations that that’s at risk, or even not at risk in high school, from high school coaches, to gymnastics coaching to boarding school teachers, etc. But controversies are always going to follow vulnerable populations. And I certainly feel the field is becoming more and more professional than ever before. And that’s why you’re seeing more insurance in the state recognition of wilderness therapy programs and I think right now, with COVID-19, we’re seeing more and more people interested and having they’re the people they care for most in their lives or children or young adults being a wilderness therapy program versus a residential facility for treatment.
Brenda  17:21
Right, what a what a switch up, it must have has been over the last few months for these programs that I would definitely feel better if my child was sort of out in the woods and nature and not around another, you know, group of human beings right now for sure.
Will  17:38
And they’re certainly what you’re seeing in the field this time of the year, typically this beginning of summer, there tends to be more enrollments in wilderness therapy programs this year if the trend is the same, but there’s certainly some concerns about travel. I’m sure for all of us.
Brenda  17:58
That is because you have to get them there. And they are typically, you know, like you said in northeast and then in Utah, and is that prevalence in Utah because of that early, you know, like you mentioned the Brigham Young program. Is that sort of where that came or is there another reason? Yeah. Because I know there are so many.
Will  18:19
Well, yes. Actually, after 2008. There there became less after that recession. So there were many more in 2008. There were more wilderness therapy programs than there are now. What happened after 2008 is some corporately owned, wilderness therapy programs closed and they closed a bunch of different ones. But Utah is it’s beautiful, it’s big country. There tends to be a little more leeway with the state and how to use lands and support by the state government related to wilderness therapy. So in the weather is actually pretty, it’s easier to deal with in the northeast and the southeast. Yet the Northeast, the southeast and the Northwest had been the areas in which wilderness therapy has been more growing since 2008. Just because of the easier access to bigger populations,
Brenda  19:25
And for people who just because we sort of jumped in knowing what we’ll do is there’ll be is, but maybe you can sort of describe the range of the type of programs or, or what, what really encapsulates that wilderness therapy program versus if I was to say, I’d have my child go to a sort of behavioral health program in more of like a hospital setting or a clinic setting.
Will  19:51
Wilderness therapy programs, in the most part are outdoor based. So there’s a large either the whole period time they’re out on expeditions. So going from one location to another location to another location, and their clinician will come in and do individual sessions with them. But that is called the nomadic wilderness therapy model. nomadic and some are primitive skills oriented. And so bow drill fires and living very simply, while others are more mountain nearing style where they might have big backpacks with MSR stoves and because this just a different style of doing it, one is more mountain mountaineering and one is more, we’re going to be living like a primitive person. The research isn’t showing one is more effective than the other, but it’s just different ways to deal with living off the land.
Brenda  21:01
Right. And so and I know when I started learning about this option, I was kind of flabbergasted that, wait, my kid’s gonna live outside with no tent or anything for how for weeks like it was just so I just never heard of anything like that before and I thought he’s such a mess. Could he even survive? He was so unhealthy. And he was just, you know, I mean, he was in a bad bad situation – angry. And so how that for a parent I think the contrast of when they think of what their kids doing right now living you know, maybe in a big city, they’re doing drugs or maybe they’re experimenting and they’re probably not the most pleasant person to be around and there’s a lot of trouble and maybe running away and police and then you think, wait, they’re gonna go live outside. How do you kind of bridge the gap between those?
Will  21:59
I think it’s such an big challenge for parents to make – thinking about their child who is very likely to die living that lifestyle and saying we’re gonna drag that person one way or another, my child to a wilderness program in Utah or New England or North Carolina? And how is how are we going to do that? Well, I think we all adjust, right that first week for someone who’s been living in a city, etc. It’s very hard for them. And yet after that first week, or eight to 10 days, all of a sudden they get into the flow of the natural environment. And that being in nature, there’s so much research that shows us that spending time in nature helps us get better and slow down.  And I think the idea of living outdoors and though they may be not in a tent, they may be under a tarp or something like that you do have – it reallly depends on the location and the time of year. Yeah, but it’s slowing down and not running from one place to another and looking at your phone are distracting and really down to the simplistic level of life where there’s less and less distraction compared to a, let’s say, a traditional residential treatment. That program that I worked in many years ago where there was the foosball table when there was you know, we could watch movies after a certain time and people would stay up with lights because you know, they couldn’t sleep versus just laying out listening to the sounds of nature and being closer to the ground. It’s and I’m sure your own son shares the story of how his progress says, which is a very natural process. It’s much more like growing flowers than it is like surgery. It takes time. But in that time, the process of change takes place because there’s less distraction and more focused on who one is as a true person versus as your son was an adolescent or late adolescence, they get caught up in all those stories of who they think they are. And getting into a simple place. Simple living helps us kind of step back, because there’s less influences on the outside from the outside world.
Brenda  24:41
He now, you know, talks about it with no, he says I hated it at first, you know, obviously, the first few days were pretty rough, but he does have some really great memories and you know, I’ll never forget him saying, mama everybody who came in and landed there fat got thin and everybody who came in skinny got healthy and
Will  25:10
they got healthier,
Brenda  25:13
yeah, you know like his his clothes barely fit him when he left because he had gained healthy weight and you know for the kids that are sitting around playing video games all day who are heavy you know, they lose the weight and yeah, you know, falling asleep under the stars and waking up with the sun and no clocks and no phone and no anything was just such a kind of just like this little pause in time for him.
Will  25:40
watching the sunset, go down as entertainment, watching the sunrise, slowing yourself down. And having that time to be asked questions by field guides. That’s the term of the staff versus residential staff you can do would be call them field guides. And have having those field guides just ask you very simple questions. Who do you want to be? Who do you think, you know? What were the things that changed you? Because you weren’t born doing drugs? Right, who were those and really writing letters to your parents. And so quickly, I got a text for it slows it all down.
Brenda  26:26
That must be fascinating to be out there. You know, we went for a family, just a two day weekend. But it must be fascinating to watch the change that happens in these kids from day one where they’re just shell shocked from like, either being transported or however they arrived there to I know, our son was there nine weeks and was a pretty dramatic shift. But for the field guide and for the therapists out there that must be just amazing to see.
Will  26:55
It is it’s really inspiring, and I think that’s why so many people who had been once been students of a wilderness or clients of a wilderness therapy program, come back and become field guides or clinicians. If you listen to my podcast, you’ll hear a number of stories from people who were one students who went on to become therapists because it’s so changed their life and they so believe it’s it’s somewhat of a calling. I think anybody who has spent a lot of time in the back back country, camping, survival, living, canoeing, etc, can relate to how one slows down in those environments and helping people through that process and watching that process. It keeps you going back for more.
Brenda  27:45
Yeah. Are there are there kids that either do well in in wilderness therapy or kids that don’t, like are there, is there any time when you would say this might not be a good fit for somebody or do you think there is enough variety of programs out there that, that this could be a good option if you’ve kind of exhausted all of your local, you know, hands on options and you’re still really worried about your kids?
Will  28:13
I certainly think it’s a great option. If it’s not working out at home and you’ve exhausted all of those options. I there are certain populations that I think are it’s a little riskier like someone with an active eating disorder, just because the medical issues related to that. Somebody who is psychotic actively psychotic or near prodromo, which means like heading towards psychosis, not so because there’s a lot of spirituality, there’s a lot of metaphors, etc. But there are programs for almost every type of client population. What we’re seeing more in the field right now is more anxious, depressed, but we’re just in general, you’re seeing more and more. So I’ve been a clinician for many, many years, right? You used to see much more anger, outbursts and oppositional, defiant, and explosive behavior. And now it’s much more internalizing, so ones that externalize behavior as more internalizing and that substance abuse continues to be an underlying theme or a primary theme, the driver of it. So we don’t always know what’s what’s first or second. But in the diagnostic clusters, substance abuses, because it’s substances are so readily available in this country right now. And even the more so since the pandemic, they’re saying prescription drug prescription drugs have been being given out at a high rate right now.
Brenda  30:07
which then leads to diversion, which then leads to young people finding them and using them so. Exactly. And are there programs that are specialized for let’s say you have a child with, you know, autism or Asperger’s or
Will  30:24
Yes, in terms of researching wilderness therapy programs, the Outdoor Behavioral Health Care Council is one cluster of programs. And that’s been around since 1996. Summit Achievement, we’re a member of it and there are other members of that group. They are all programs that have to be accredited by their state and accredited by the Association for Experiential Education. So two different accrediting bodies. Within those programs, there tend to be some that meet work with certain populations, so people, young people dealing with attachment issues, young adults 18 and above with substance abuse issues, etc. So they’re within a one program, you could have to do two or three or four different teams, there may be a team of kids who have executive functioning issues. And then you may have a team of girls who are working with trauma. But most of the time, what you’re seeing is more specialized treatment. Early in the field of wilderness therapy, I would say in the 80s. And nine is sort of like, oh, everybody does her model and they come out great, right? And it got much more clinically sophisticated, to where they’re looking. They’re looking at what cognitive behavioral therapy intervention are we using, as well as the adjunct of nature and in making these changes?
Brenda  31:58
Yeah, that’s that’s good to hear. Because I I do think that parents worry about that, you know, and I know we worried about it and thought, well, who is he going to be out there with? And are they going through the same kinds of things. And that’s where, you know, doing your research really helps. And, you know, some people are able to work with educational consultants, which are just an amazing resource to help you really navigate through the complexities of this, but how does a parent even begin to, to figure this out? If they’re saying, you know, we’ve exhausted local resources, they’re not working. We’re really worried we need to get this kid out of here. Where would you recommend that they start?
Will  32:39
Well, Brenda, I really give you a lot of credit by researching, you have to start by researching and getting to know everything you can. Not all research should start at Google, right? Just researching wilderness therapy – Google, I think is a little questionable because there’s certainly a lot of controversies related to anything that you can pull off the internet. I would look at the Outdoor Behavioral Health Care Council website. There’s Research at the University of New Hampshire and that’s at the outdoor Behavioral Health Care Center. Those are two different places to look for. I mean, number one is getting an educational consultant. If you get an educational consultant they have done most of the work for you got to put it right out there and I know you’re going to in the near future probably have some guests or you are have had some guests and they can educate you all about the more nuances because they come to programs. We have them visit and look at our programs. They talk to us. They’re where we educate them. They educate us. I would always look for accredited in licensed programs. Every state a licensed program, you can go to the state, if you want and say this, let’s say Summit, State of Maine, has there been any violations that have been reported? And the state can give you that. Most program also give you a list of former parents. Most programs, there should be a robust website, ask those questions, because it’s really, you got to do the research and don’t just go well, one, my friend, one friend recommended this look at a couple couple programs and on average, just look at one, but narrow down, don’t get overwhelmed by looking at to like 100 different programs, really get educated about the field of wilderness therapy and its long history.
Brenda  34:55
Yeah, that’s, that’s great. I love the idea of going to the state, doing that deep research and talking with former parents not only, I think for the, you know, the referral and just getting an idea of the program, but also for the emotional support of, you know, just the, for us, at least for me, the thought of having my child transported and we can talk about what that means to but, you know, having guys come pick him up in the middle of the night and taking them out to Utah from, you know, living in the city in Seattle. It was just such a bizarre process and thought that I was going to do this that it was helpful for me to talk to a couple of parents to hear them say, yeah, you know, my kid was doing the same stuff, and here’s how it happened. So you just don’t feel quite so alone. And in this big, big decision,
Will  35:51
you know, not all programs like some of we do not take students by transport part is because it’s the location. It’s not the way we have our parents talk to their children every week on a phone call. And obviously, in transporting people, that’s not going to be good for the first couple weeks. So it really that’s part of like, in a case like that you might call up a program and they say, No, no, if they’re not willing to come here, we send this. So there’s a whole range of wilderness therapy for those for those intensive in like We’re saving our child’s life. Absolutely. They’re called transports. So it’s someone who is transporting someone from a parent’s house to another part of the country where they’re enrolled in a wilderness therapy program in the early early years is started off by being referred to as in home enrollments. So programs themselves would literally send two of their staff to your house and knock on and usually they would do that, in the early morning when the young adult or adolescent was sleeping it off and grab them and say you’re coming with us to wilderness. And that would be the enrollment. Now, there is actual people, organizations, and companies that are hired to transport young people to wilderness programs. Now, young adults cannot be transported because they have the same, anybody over 18, because they have the same rights as any adult. And in that case, many parents are just pretty much do an intervention and the interventionists will help create will help do the transportation.
Brenda  37:53
It’s so interesting, because when you know I told a couple of people after we’d had him sent out about the program, they were like, why would you have to? Why would you have to convince him to go that sounds amazing, you know, his cousins were saying, I want to go to a place like that where I can, you know, be outdoors. And so it’s just so interesting the the perspective of, you know, a kiddo that’s really hurting and living this life, not wanting to go and live out in nature and under the stars and, and all that, but it’s a rough decision to have to make. And I really, my heart goes out to parents who are trying to make that decision, especially if they have to be transported, if you can talk to them and get them to go. I think that’s, that would just be ideal. But there are times when, like you said, it’s it’s really the danger is imminent, and they need to be removed, and it’s a very painful experience to go through. Do you see parents making mistakes during this process or sort of leading up to this when when they’re trying to decide what they should do.
Will  39:01
I think anytime you’re thinking about doing an intervention with a your child is your patterns, your enmeshment are getting your way. And so the number one mistake is not having a therapist yourself, not doing your own work. And realizing you’re part of this is you’re saving your child’s life. Especially if you need to involve transportation because your things have gotten to the place where they’re completely out of control. And a lot of the research at the University of New Hampshire at the outdoor Behavioral Health Center is it’s often more dangerous for a young and for an adolescent to be living a life of using drugs then it is for them to be in a wilderness therapy. They’re probably, they’re more likely to die living and using than they are in a wilderness therapy program. And so the worries when you look on things on the web like a wilderness therapy is bad. That’s your issue right? You’re getting caught up and what’s going on? What you what you read versus getting the facts. And you can find it as we’re finding out with COVID-19. Right like, you can find any any story that suits what you’re doing right now. Right wearing a mask not wearing a mask. Yeah, if we look at really look deeply in ourselves, we all know that time in nature is good for us. We all know that breathing fresh air and sunshine and exercise is good for us. We all know, a good therapist is good for us. And then what do we want for our child we want them to get healthy. And so exercise a well being with healthy people and being exercising all those things and not getting caught up in your own story?
Brenda  41:06
Yeah, I know, I rationalized for a while, oh, it’s February, I could never, you know, my kid’s gonna die. He’s, you know, he lives in this great house and he’s never been camping before. And you know, there’s no way I could send him in February. We’ll wait until June. And it was just ridiculous the things that I told myself. So I think you’re right in saying that you do need a therapist of your own to help you to call you on some of that. Because these programs are so professional, they’ll never,  your kid’s never gonna freeze to death. I mean, they’ve got the gear like there’s, you know, the best gear in the world. So, I think you’re right, you could talk yourself in and out of whatever you want to. And when it comes to your child, it’s easy to say, Oh, you know, oh, I couldn’t do this or I couldn’t do that. But they’re, they’re fine and they thrive eventually. But yeah, I think that’s a myth that the parents tell themselves is, you know, oh, this is going to be dangerous or Well, there’s nothing more dangerous than, than doing what they’re doing out there on their own getting
Will  42:13
And getting people like yourself who can coach them and who have been through the process is so critical. You know, Outward Bound was founded with the idea that if you don’t go out, if you leave a ship, right, in port, on the barnacles, it’s gonna rust out and it’s gonna sink. And the only way – boats were made to be out, so you go Outward Bound to go out, to make change. So the barnacles come off. So you’re making that ship go because we are made to be moving. And when our child who is suffering is suffering, and they start getting healthy, we need to continue work on our own health.
Brenda  43:05
Yes, that is a big part of it, I was surprised to learn about that a big part of our son being in wilderness therapy was us being in as part of that program as well, and us doing the work every week, and the reading and the workbooks and you know, you don’t just send them off and then, you know, kick back and they show back up nine weeks later, and they’re all fixed.
Will  43:31
They actually had many years ago, 20 plus years ago, that’s what was happening right, but now, you’re doing, you’re doing sophisticated parent coaching. You’re reading really inspiring books that also make you question your assumptions and paradigms, whether it’s the book The Parallel Process, or Man’s Search For Meaning or all of these different books and there is so many to choose from, and having a good coach to help you look at like, what is your patterns or measurement? What are your patterns of rescuing? How are you reacting to these sort of as the parent? And what are your triggers? And the child the same thing?
Brenda  44:19
Yeah, it’s so important, there’s so much there that happens as a family, which seems counterintuitive because your child is potentially thousands of miles away from you. But I know we actually felt closer while he was there because we never talked when he was home it was only yelling and screaming and door slamming and police in the living room. So to have a healthy conversation that was facilitated by a professional therapist and and really, you can see the progress was was pretty incredible. And those are the things that I think people don’t think about when they’re trying to make this decision. Cuz when you’re trying to make the decision, your life is in a state of chaos just by nature of the reason why you’re doing it. So you’re not taking the time to think through all of those aspects that there is family support that there are, you know, people there to help you through it. And, you know, I remember asking our educational consultant, if we do this, is he ever going to speak to us again, because I honestly believed that my son would never ever speak to me again, if I did this. And I remember her saying, I’ve never had that happen yet. And I think she’d been in business for almost 20 years at that at that point. And I wanted to believe her and so I, you know, I ended up obviously making the move, but that it is a terrifying thought that, you know, but in my mind, I thought, even if he doesn’t, I’d rather have him go, be healthy and have a chance than, you know, die on the streets of you know where he is. So it’s a it’s big decision! And is there sort of a scenario that you see all the time? Is there a question that you get asked? Like, if you could have a billboard in the middle of downtown that would kind of answer one question once and for all, what would that be?
Will  46:17
Oh my goodness, there’s so many questions that I get asked over and over. Is it dangerous, right? And it’s not as dangerous as continuing old patterns of self destructive behavior. Right? The research continues to show that who are the staff and they’re all very well educated all you look at any website of a wilderness therapy program, you’re going to see the background and really dedicated and caring people. What are they going to eat? They’re eating very healthy foods more and more. The field of wellness therapy is really skilled at what are healthy foods. What are essential healthy foods and as we all know, we’ve all changed our most of us have changed our eating behaviors over the last 20 years to become much healthier and much more holistic than ever before. So, wilderness therapy is a great alternative when things are not working out. And yet, even if young people aren’t needing a wilderness therapy program, I think rites of passage like an Outward Bound course or a Nol’s course, etc, is a huge rite of passage that could be quite helpful for young people because there’s less and less rites of passage. Unfortunately, this summer, Nol’s is not running most of his courses or Outward Bound. So wilderness therapy programs are one because they are considered an essential service are continuing to operate. And I see that is continuing on because just like residential mental health or substance abuse treatment hasn’t been closed traditional wilderness therapy or traditional wilderness experience programs like Outward Bound and Nol’s are not operating this summer.
Brenda  48:20
hmm wow, that’s too bad. That’s that’s a that’s gonna be a big gap.
Will  48:26
Yeah, you know, for a lot of people I would go on summer camps. Some are some are it’s really about the region of the country where you’re and that’s that’s obviously up to the parents to look at what region and what are things in place.
Brenda  48:41
You know, when you when you talked about the food and eating and what are they going to eat. For some reason that never crossed my mind. When I was going through it. It’s just sort of seemed consequential but I will say for parents who are worried about that, you know, my son hadn’t really done a lot of cooking Not a lot, a little bit with me. But he became so resourceful and he and another kid and his group became sort of the chefs because they get a certain allotment of food each each week and they have to ration it and they got so inventive and in the things that they would create and make with this food and that has carried on through this is now six years later, he is so creative with food and he said I can make anything out of anything. You know, Mama I sat around a campfire and put together tuna and mustard and oatmeal and, you know, dates. And, and so there are things like that, that and we were talking before we recorded that, that the little seeds that get planted. You know, because if you’ve listened to my story in first episode, you know that wilderness was the first of many, many steps of their programs and treatment. But those little seeds get planted and he really is so creative today with food and And he has this love of cooking, that I don’t think he would have had if well, a he probably wouldn’t be alive. But but there was just such a unique piece of the program that I think it’s important for parents to look at all those little things, you know, he knows how to tie knots now that he would not know how to do. But they are little seeds. And maybe you can talk about that a little bit that, you know, kid might not come out of wilderness and be done. But that those are building blocks.
Will  50:30
Now what you’re what you just shared about your son is he learned to take care of himself better, right? Not to depend on you for his food, not depend on others like he learned to cook and now he carries that with him. Those are critical parts of the process. As you were saying, not everybody after they finish a wilderness program, what we know, in wilderness therapy, they’re going to be sober and clean, right? They’re going to be outside, they’re going to have this period of time where they’re eating while they’re exercising. They’re getting vitamin D, you know, because of the sun, and they’re slowing down. There’s no influences of phones, social media, etc. Now, many may go back and relapse, regress to old behaviors, do it. The research shows us that they don’t go as far back but yes, there can be, like with any treatment progression, but it’s usually a stepping stone. I’ve known many, many students, and there’s plenty of research backing up that there as time goes on, they look back on their experience of wilderness therapy going like yes, that’s when I really started to get a view of what because by the time someone ends up in treatment, they’re first residential treatment, things have been going sideways for many years, as we say in the field that takes so long to get into the woods. And it takes a while to get out of the woods. And so sometimes in that getting out of the woods, they fall back into old patterns of behavior. But they recall, and many programs we certainly do is we say, remember how you feel right now? Remember how you feel right now? Because as time goes on, and after they discharge if there’s not a really good plan of what’s next and what’s after that a lot of scaffolding can go back in behavior, old behavior, but they can remember how it felt to be clean and sober.
Brenda  52:54
Which is such a gift, such a gift to give them that time. Otherwise they just don’t have it and they just keep going down in that spiral. Right? Wow, this has just been so incredible. Such great depth of information, both kind of the history but then very practical. Is there any other questions that you think I should ask that are sort of burning on your mind that you would want parents to know or just sort of some words of wisdom that you’d like to share?
Will  53:30
I think giving wilderness therapy a chance – as a parent who’s considering it – spend some time, go for a walk in the woods, really experience it yourself by spending more time outside, especially now during this pandemic. I think that I’m personally believe my career shifted in the later 80s and early 90s because I don’t have a lot of faith in, on the most part, in traditional outpatient therapy for adolescence, and I was one of those. I just don’t see it as effective because, right. Let me tell you, I’ll tell you a story. I do. I often teach a class in wilderness therapy, I’ll do workshops. And I’ve asked over 1000 people who has the biggest influence in your life, who positive influence in your life, who wasn’t your parent, when you were an adolescent? Over 1000 people, it wasn’t until two years ago where more and more former wilderness therapy students came to my classes. I never heard anybody say my therapist, my adolescent therapist. It wasn’t until a couple years ago and I’ve had, five different former wilderness therapy students who went on to be take college classes or had been in a workshop of mine, said it was my therapist at my wilderness therapy program. Before that, that thousand, it was my coach. It was my teacher, it was my minister, it was my pastor, it was my rabbi, right? That’s who influenced me. Now I see that connection, that relationship that can really be bonded in the outdoors, in challenging experiences can happen versus sitting on a couch. The whole idea of being on a couch or chairs and doing therapy for adolescence. I just don’t have faith in it. Yet more people question wilderness therapy than they do question doing outpatient therapy, you know, in chairs in the therapists office than they do. You know, they question wilderness therapy greater – it’s fascinating to me.
Brenda  56:07
That’s so true. The influences that these young people have are so you know, can be so skewed negative when they’re with these friends. And I use the term friends lightly. But yeah, to have one positive person in in their life is just so important. So well thank you for all of this. Are there resources that you would recommend to anyone who’s listening, as they’re thinking about whether wilderness therapy might be right for their teen or their young adult?
Will  56:47
I think I mentioned all of them – the OGHCouncil.com and the OBH Center, which is the Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, critical places to get resources, a couple other websites would be AllKindsofTherapy.com that just lists a lot of different programs, if not all of them are accredited or licensed. My feedback to parents is always make sure it’s an accredited licensed program with accredited and licensed therapists.
Brenda  57:23
Well, thank you again, Will, for this treasure trove of information about about the industry in general but for your very practical tips and if you want to connect with Will and his work, you can visit Summit Achievement.com, which is the wilderness program, but there’s tons of resources listed there as well. And then you can listen to, to Will’s really, really interesting podcast, get it wherever you get your podcasts and that is called Stories From the Field: Demystifying Wilderness Therapy and I would highly recommend it. It is just so informative, you can get so much information there that I really have no idea where else you would get that kind of information. So definitely check that out. So thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and sharing this information with my listeners.
Will  58:15
Well, thank you. I appreciate you for all the work that you’re doing Brenda, and I wish you the best of luck.
Brenda  58:25
If you are a mom who’s looking for some support and some strength, I hope you will check out The Stream. It is our online community for moms to get together find a tribe of other people who are going through a really difficult time and just try and get as healthy and whole as possible while your child is struggling. And you can also find that at my website BrendaZane.com. And if you would do me a huge favor, I would really appreciate it. And that would be to leave me a review and rating on the podcast platform that you listen to hope stream on, that’ll help more parents find us. So thank you so much for listening and I’ll meet you here next week.