We Have to Talk About It: Understanding the Link Between Mental Health, Substance Use and Suicide, with Anne Moss Rogers

[00:00:33] Brenda: welcome. You’re listening to Hope Stream. If you’re parenting a teen or young adult child who’s experimenting with drugs and alcohol, or who’s in active addiction treatment or early recovery, you’re in the right place. I am Brenda Zane, your host, and a mom who has been there.
[00:00:51] So just take the minute to exhale, know you’re a good company and just know this is your place to soak up. Understanding and get some really great information. You can learn more about me and the work I do to serve parents like you@brendaza.com. I need to start this episode with a trigger warning that we will be touching on sensitive topics about suicide and self-harm.
[00:01:19] And if you or your child is in a crisis situation or you need help, please call the new mental health hotline at 9 88 or you can text seven 40. 7 41, which is the crisis text line. It is so difficult to talk about suicide, and I was honestly stunned to look back over the 130 or so episodes of Hope Stream only to realize I have never addressed it.
[00:01:46] Head on as an episode topic, and let me tell you why I was so interested in delving into this topic as challenging as it. If you’ve been listening for a while, you know I’m a bit of a research and data nerd, and I like to know the real deal about a subject before I bring it here to you on the podcast.
[00:02:07] So I did some digging and I learned that among adolescents age 12 to 17, 12% or 3 million teens had serious thoughts of suicide. 5.3% or 1.3 million teens made a suicide plan, and two and a half percent or 629,000 teens attempted suicide in the past. In the United States, that translates to 1,203 teen girls who committed suicide and 4,859 boys.
[00:02:46] And in the past 20 years, teen suicide has increased by 66%. In 2000 there were 3,900 teen suicides. In 2020, there were 6,060. I also learned the rate of male to female youth suicide, and we’re only talking youth here is four to one. This all means that every day in the United States, there are over 16 teens who take their own lives.
[00:03:20] This astounding information spurred me to be much more intentional about finding someone to share with us about such a delicate but vitally important subject. One that is especially relevant to parents who have kids misusing substances and struggling with mental health. So as happens in life, I had the very good fortune of receiving a timely.
[00:03:46] From one of my helpline friends at the Partnership to End Addiction, and she sent me information about Ann Moss Rogers, a mom whose son was struggling with mental health. He was addicted to heroin and ended his life in 2015. You’ll hear how all those statistics I just shared with. Come to life in a family with a mom and a dad, and the impact both good and bad.
[00:04:14] So a bit about the mom that you’re going to hear from in a. Ann Moss is a sought after motivational mental health speaker, a lifelong writer, and a marketing expert, and she co-owned a digital marketing company until 2017 as a partner and creative director after her son Charles’s death in 2015, she followed her passion to focus on mental health and suicide prevention full.
[00:04:41] And sold her marketing business, the most devastating loss of her life was a turning point, and she’s never looked back or regretted her decision to help others. What you’re gonna hear today is Ann Moss sharing suicide warning signs that parents should be looking for in their kids. We talk about the impact of social media on our kids’ mental health.
[00:05:03] We talk about self harm, and she also shares language that we can use to start a conversation about a really, really uncomfortable topic with our kids. We also talk about whether or not even mentioning the word suicide with our children can give them the idea or cause it to happen. Ann Moss and I share some striking similarities with our marketing advertising backgrounds, our decision to leave our established careers to help other parents hopefully avoid our experiences, and yet I am the fortunate one who still has the incredible miracle of having my son with me.
[00:05:46] It’s hard to have these conversations sometimes because I wonder why. Why do I still get to have my boy here to hug him and watch him grow and do his own work, helping others? And I don’t have an answer to that. So I just try to listen. I try to give people like an moss, a platform to share their voice and share their passion with you.
[00:06:14] You’ll get so much from this and please do share this episode. In particular, if you know a parent whose child may be struggling with mental health issues and especially, 
[00:06:25] anne moss: especially if there substance,
[00:06:31] it’s from.
[00:06:36] Brenda: Mo thank you so very much for taking time to be here with me today on Hopes Dream. This is a much, much needed conversation. It’s much overdue. I have, I think 130 something episodes and have never had this conversation, so I’m really glad that you’re here and appreciate you taking the time today. 
[00:06:55] anne moss: Well, thank you so much for, for having me.
[00:06:58] I mean, we’re obvious. Both of us head on some very sensitive topics, and this is definitely one that ties in with substance use disorder. So it is really important, um, for people like us to understand what those signs are. Yes, 
[00:07:17] Brenda: absolutely. And the, oh, well, there’s so much that we’re gonna get into, but before we do that, um, before I just jump in, why don’t you give, Uh, some context for listeners about who you are, what you do, and then we’ll do some rewind and, and go a little bit into the, to your deeper story.
[00:07:37] But just give us a little framework of who you are and what you’re doing 
[00:07:40] anne moss: today. So I used to be in digital marketing and advertising many years ago. And after my son’s death by suicide, I decided to go public and eventually that led me to becoming a suicide prevention trainer. Um, a national public speaker and the author of two books on the subject of the first one’s more about sort of addiction and suicide, and the second one focuses more on suicide, but of course, The addiction piece is included because that’s definitely a trigger to suicide.
[00:08:21] So I do a lot of, uh, speak to a lot of parents, uh, go to a lot of conferences, and then the keynote speaker there. I do a lot of training, um, professional development for educators because, you know, if we can get in to, to talk to those gatekeepers, you know, we. Catch things early before it becomes a crisis.
[00:08:44] Yes, 
[00:08:45] Brenda: absolutely. I know you and I were just talking about that eighth grade mark, which seems to be such a turning point for so many of our kids, so I’m really glad to hear that you’re working with educators because. They are, they, they have eyes on our kids for such a huge period of the day that we don’t, you know?
[00:09:04] Right. We’re not, we’re not seeing a lot of what they’re seeing, so that’s really, really important. And I just, you know, I look at someone like you as just taking such a horrific tragedy and turned that into something so powerful. But I’m curious about the, that transition and how, how did you. Come to that decision to say, I’m, I’m going to make a shift in my career, my life, and just, you know, go in this other direction.
[00:09:37] Um, just maybe what, what was that process like for you? Because you clearly had to go through a very deep and intense morning period. Yeah. Um, which I don’t know would ever end. , um, what was that like and, and kind of what was the inspiration to do this as kind of a full-time thing versus, you know, volunteer here and there at different marches or whatever.
[00:10:02] Um, what was that for you? 
[00:10:05] anne moss: So, um, my son died that suicide on July, on June, 2015. And I was a speaker. In my business as a digital marketing, and I owned a digital marketing firm, so I spoke on things like women in business, social media, and how, and inbound marketing and you know, digital marketing and stuff like that.
[00:10:34] And after he died, I kind of kept going along and I, my morale and my investment personally in my own. Just really wasn’t there. And my business partner started to kind of drag along the lion’s share of, of the business. And that was very difficult. And it also became kind of a morality problem with my employees because I’m the passion, I was the passion leader, you know, and I was the creative director and I got, you know, if I was excited about it, everybody else.
[00:11:15] and I didn’t have that excitement anymore. And so as I was kind of pondering and thinking it’s gonna catch fire again, I’m gonna get into this again. Um, something happened. So I had written a newspaper article about our family’s tragedy that had gone viral. And then not long after that, I wrote a piece for my blog called the Final 48.
[00:11:42] And it was because I was a mess. I was a complete mess and really struggling to get out of bed every morning, and especially coming next to the first death anniversary. So it’s the middle of the night I can’t sleep. I get up and I write this article and I’m cringing and I hit publish, and it’s basically how we got the news and how we reacted to that.
[00:12:11] I remember thinking, people are gonna think I’m selfish for sharing this. They’re, they’re gonna think I’m asking for pity. Why am I sharing my ugly naked mama grief with the world? Who would wanna see that and who would even care about this story? Nobody had been asking about Charles, and when I talked about ’em, they would cut me off mid Senate.
[00:12:32] So I just didn’t really think that I, I’ve had this article go viral, but I still didn’t think. Would care. But it helped me, and I didn’t share it because I thought nobody wants to read this, but at the time I probably had 200 subscribers. I think every one of ’em must have shared it. And then all of a sudden there are all these comments.
[00:12:59] And about two days later, this young lady named Lauren, who was 22 years old, sent me a message that. This blog post saved my life last night. Um, I read it and I understood it from a different point of view, and, and I felt your agony. I can’t do that to my parents. And she reached out to her own parents and she asked for help.
[00:13:28] That was my turning point. 
[00:13:31] Brenda: Gives me 
[00:13:32] anne moss: goosebumps. . Yeah. I was just like, I, I can’t do advertising anymore. I have to do this, and it’s been hard and ugly at the lot of slam doors in my face. Um, whole lot of rejection. It really is like pushing a spike ball uphill in a driving snowstorm. , you know, there’s the suicide tease.
[00:14:03] My son had a mental illness, depression, and um, he was addicted to heroin. I mean, you know, all just really ugly ending. And I thought at first people don’t want to hear that story because it’s not a success story. You know, I lost and now I’m speaking on it. You know, who’d want somebody, well, why would I want you?
[00:14:30] What do you know your kid died, you know, , right. So I was concerned about that and I have heard people say that, but fewer than I would’ve thought. Now I get a lot of invitations and the doors have opened in the last five years, but it’s been a struggle. Um, but, you know, I wouldn’t do it any other way. I. I have found so much healing in this process of finding my voice and finding my audience, and it’s just meant the world to me.
[00:15:08] That’s incredible. I’ve had a lot of young people, a lot of any age people reach out and say, this really helped me, and I mean, I’ve answer. Tens of thousands of people online and by email. Yeah, 
[00:15:27] Brenda: that’s a really, it’s interesting, um, to hear of your turning point like that, uh, because when you do realize that your words have so much power for helping people and you know, you probably don’t know.
[00:15:45] The thousands of people that you’ve helped that never tell you, right, like that they made a, you know, a different decision and gotten help or talked to their parents and, and you don’t know. So that’s really beautiful. I would love to hear about Charles and about his. Life and his story. Um, I watched some of the videos on your site and he just looks like such a cool kid, and so 
[00:16:10] anne moss: full of, so full of humor and, and life.
[00:16:13] Brenda: Um, but I would love to hear his story and when you noticed that he was struggling and, and what that looked like for your 
[00:16:20] anne moss: family. So I wanna take this opportunity to tell everybody. I did write my first book, diary of a Broken Mind. I talk about Charles, but I also include his rap lyrics because his rap lyrics tell you what was happening in his soul.
[00:16:41] And it was only until I read those lyrics that really understood drug addiction because he really, he was a creative genius, so he was six foot. Hundred and 30 pounds. And I kid you not, I mean, I was always trying to find pants that were 28, 34 and I mean, you know, a string bean, oh, he was a string bean.
[00:17:04] Had an eight pack. All his friends were envious cuz he could eat whatever he wanted. But he won a huge eater because he couldn’t sit still long enough. Um, he had a sleep disorder that started when he was like, Two years old. And so he struggled his whole life to find sleep. He wasn’t able to, like you see kids taking a nap on the sofa.
[00:17:29] Charles never took a nap on the sofa. He was also the funniest and most popular kid in school. I mean, everybody knew who he was. He made people laugh. I mean, and what he was really good at was timing and being able to kinda adjust the comedy. To the audience who was in front of him. Wow. And he was very affectionate.
[00:17:55] Like he was the, as a toddler, he was the kid who was crawling up into grandparents and hugging and giving kisses and cuddling. And, and he had, as a three year old, he had this white shop, blonde hair. And I mean, he was just one of those kids when he walked in, all eyes turned towards him his whole life.
[00:18:19] That was, and he ended up just being popular, like within minutes and it was just pretty incredible thing to watch. And he was an absolutely awesome kid and I just feel. The world misses somebody like Charles, somebody so willing to listen and be there for others. Yeah. 
[00:18:47] Brenda: Wow. And so when did you start noticing that he was experimenting with substances or, cause I know the, the addiction and the suicide piece are so wrapped up together.
[00:19:01] Um, they are, but you notice obviously some substance. I would imagine first, and so what, what did that 
[00:19:09] anne moss: look like? So it’s around 2010, he started kind of dabbling in things here or there as a freshman. And you’ll notice that a lot of kids, the spring of their freshman year and high school is the time where they’re more likely to start experimenting with drugs and.
[00:19:33] and lots of times we think about it as they’re trying these drugs and alcohol to fit in, but that’s not really the case these days. It really is sort of an antidote to how they feel to sort of numb uncomfortable feelings. Yeah. And feelings. They don’t quite know what to do with. And so in Charles’s case, the drugs and alcohol were an antidote to his thoughts, suicide, which I believe he was having as early as 10 years old.
[00:20:06] Now that I look back and talk to friends, it may have been even earlier. Um, but I, I don’t know for sure. So, you know, it starts with things like beer and alcohol that they find in your house. And then he tried marijuana and oh my gosh, it, it makes him sleep. You know? Uh, why don’t, why can’t I have this? You know?
[00:20:36] But one thing that all experts on youth and, and substance mis. That they’ll agree and disagree on like just about every point. But the one that everybody agrees on is that the use of substances under the age of 25 is not good for the developing brain. Right? And that was definitely the case with Charles because when he was using marijuana heavily, he was starting to have psychotic episodes.
[00:21:10] I didn’t actually see. Friends told me about them and his brother, um, said that he had mentioned that he had been hearing voices. And so these days marijuana may be a gateway drug for some, but it can be a destination drug. Where they end up with, um, high THC concentrates, which are exceptionally dangerous and everybody thinks they’re so harmless.
[00:21:40] Right? And we and your audience knows that they aren’t. So he ends up, um, going to a therapeutic boarding school and before that wilderness, because I couldn’t stop this drug use and. I think a lot of people sympathize with when it first starts happening. You’re like taking away the car keys. Oh, this is gonna work.
[00:22:04] Yeah. 
[00:22:05] Brenda: Just more discipline and less, less access to things. 
[00:22:09] anne moss: That’ll work. Right. That’ll work. And I’ll start drug testing cuz we all know drug testing. It’s the magic wand, getting them to stop. I mean, all that does is tell you what they’re using. It doesn’t make them stop. And then he would do things that would kind of be under the radar, like robo tripping and things that you can’t actually test for.
[00:22:30] So it was, I’d say it was the latter part of the sophomore year, and by the time he was, um, a junior in the spring, things were really getting outta hand. I thought he’s gonna die. You know, he, he’d become more reckless, which is actually behavior that reflects depression, like reckless. I don’t care about life if I happen to die, so be it.
[00:23:01] Yeah. Which is super scary as a parent when you’re watching that and you feel so hopeless and helpless. So the first thing I did when he went out to wilderness is I found Families Anonymous and I joined that and that was my family away from family. And they’re all different kinds of families and more, some are more religious, some are more kind of black and white.
[00:23:30] But fortunately I got into a group that was, whatever religion you bring in here, um, you know, It’s really just being together and talking and having. You know, getting support from somewhere.
[00:23:51] Brenda: Hi, I’m taking a quick break because I wanna let you know about the private online community I created and host for moms who have kids misusing drugs or alcohol. It’s where I hang out between the episodes, so I wanted to share a little bit about it. This place is called The Stream, and it isn’t a Facebook group.
[00:24:09] It’s completely private away from all social media sites where you start to take care of yourself because through all of this, who is taking care of you, the Stream is a place where we teach the craft approach and skills to help you. Better conversations and relationships, and we help you get as physically, mentally, and spiritually healthy as possible so that you can be even stronger for your son or daughter.
[00:24:35] You can join us free for two weeks to see if it’s the right kind of support for you and learn more about all the benefits that you get as a member@thestreamcommunity.com, and I’ll see you there. Now let’s get back to the conversation.
[00:24:52] So, Yeah, that’s, um, it’s such a common story I hear over and over and over, and I just wish there was a way to, and you know, this is what I’m doing, is what you’re doing is to try and get this information to people sooner, right? So that when they start to see these things at a young age, You’re not sort of wandering in the dark for all years and years trying to figure out what’s going on.
[00:25:21] So he went to wilderness and and boarding school, and then he came home. Did he go back to his high school or what happened then? He had already 
[00:25:29] anne moss: graduated. Oh, okay. And uh, then apparently once he came home and. Learning other coping strategies. He went back to the one that he had started using when he was younger, which is drugs and alcohol.
[00:25:46] Yeah. So some kids become addicted and then become suicidal. Once they’re addicted. Some kids become addicted because they’re suicidal and they’re trying to numb those feelings. And Charles was the latter. Okay. And he became addicted to heroin within probably a month of coming. But I didn’t know it. Mm.
[00:26:11] And it may not have been that quick. I, I don’t really know, but for the better part of 10 months he was using in our house, I had no idea. Mm. There was no paraphernalia. There were no burnt spoons or 10 foil because he did not use a. He would text his dealer. Yeah, the car was parked out front. He would meet the dealer in his car.
[00:26:38] He would snort the drugs in his car. He would go back inside. Mm. And that was late at night because he didn’t fall asleep until 2:00 AM at that point because he had the delayed sleep based syndrome. Right. Which is a circadian rhythm disorder, and he wasn’t able to fall asleep for that. Tom. Wow. Well, guess what?
[00:26:59] Mama could 
[00:27:01] Brenda: Yes. You know? Yes. 
[00:27:03] anne moss: Mom’s not awake at two o’clock. 
[00:27:05] Brenda: So, and that’s, um, that is so common. Or if it’s not happening at two o’clock in the morning, if it’s happening at 10 o’clock, Parents often think that this is an Uber or this is, you know, right. Something like that. So it’s one of those things that you just don’t naturally think, oh, of course my kid’s going out to, you know, do heroin in the car.
[00:27:26] I mean, it’s just so un, it’s just such a crazy thought that you can’t even wrap your head around it. 
[00:27:33] anne moss: I don’t think I would’ve ever figured out that piece of it, that I had a drive cam in this car because the cops were pulling it over. You know, everything. And they were lying and, you know, just making up excuses.
[00:27:50] It was a county where they had a, a quota, you know, that’s how they paid for, you know, new drainage system was to pull as many 19 year olds as they could find. And so I just, I had that drive, Kim, and, and it was a cold night and he started the car because he was waiting for the dealer to show. And I can’t see anything and I only heard audio and it took me a while to kind of piece together what I heard, but it was just kind of like one night it hit me what was going on, and I was up, ran Rod straight going, oh my gosh, he’s making a, a drug deal in the car.
[00:28:34] Brenda: Wow. Yeah. So you are in the thick of it. I am. And you said that you, that now you think that his suicidal ideation had started much younger. But were you aware during this time when, like when he was in wilderness and in boarding school, was suicide on your radar or were you really more concerned about the substances?
[00:29:00] anne moss: I was concerned about the. Had no idea suicide was on his radar. So here’s some clues that the, um, are red flags. He was falling asleep in class, which, you know, giving the sleep disorder, I could kind of write that off there. He was going to the nurse’s clinic all the time, headaches, back aches, nerve, muscle, that kind of thing.
[00:29:29] And those, that pain is, Because they’re tensing up a lot. So frequent flyers to the, uh, school nurse or the, uh, primary care physician, even broken limbs, because kids who are depressed tend to get sick more. They tend to be a more accidents, they tend to have more ailments. Charles cot every flu strain at every school and every place he ever visited.
[00:30:00] his friends did change, his grades dropped. So it’s not just one of these things, but the combination of multiple ones. He also talked about death a lot. He talk, he was always talking about people who died young. And then I remember one day in the car goes, you know, mom, I might not live that long. I may not have, get married and have children.
[00:30:28] I should have stopped and said, tell me more about that. I’m listening. But I was so dumbstruck, I was afraid that I was gonna plant some kind of idea in his head by asking that question. And I think as parents, we need to listen more and lecture less. And that includes basically when they’re saying something like, They’re inviting you to ask more questions, but not to ask in a way that is probing, but ask in a way where you really want to hear what they have to say and that you’re curious.
[00:31:10] You know, you gotta think, curious mind, so I’d love to know what, what brought that up and what you’re thinking is behind. Started a discussion on that. Um, he would say on Facebook and on Twitter, he said, if I died, no one would notice for at least a month. And that’s actually could have been the bullet point under the phrase, what do people thinking of suicide say?
[00:31:40] So there were many opportunities for mental health professionals to tell me he was suicidal. They would tell me he was high. But they wouldn’t define what that meant, and he was always with me when they gave me the results. So I never knew was it okay to ask in front of him. Right. I asked specifically about suicide twice, and it would, they took like a bucket of water and threw it on top of my question, and I remember just feeling like, well, I guess that doesn’t apply to us.
[00:32:15] It was. In early 10th grade that I had a difficult time getting my son outta bed one morning, two weeks later. And there was a lot of yelling, and I’m not really proud of that morning because I was trying to get him off to school and I was frustrated with him, and I would find out two weeks later when he told me that he had made a suicide attempt that night.
[00:32:41] Mm. And, you know, it was two weeks later he wasn’t suicidal anymore, so it didn’t make sense to run to the emergency room, and I wasn’t sure really what’s due. Um, but we talked about it and I really just shut up and let him talk. And for whatever reason I thought, whew, we dodged a. . But what I want everyone to know is a previous suicide attempt is one of the main predictors of future suicide.
[00:33:15] Mm. And it doesn’t mean that recovery is not possible, but it means that you shouldn’t rest on your laurels and ignore those signs because you think they’ve learned a lesson. It’s not some, it’s not a moment where they’re entirely within their own control because that suicidal ideation has a limited amount of time.
[00:33:42] Um, 20 minutes is average and their times in there where the thoughts of killing themselves are exceptionally intense. And then it drops off a little bit and they’re more ambivalent, and then it’ll kind of go back up and they’ll. Really, really intense again, and then it’ll kind of drop off. That’s one example of how some, a few brains work in the ideation.
[00:34:10] You know, it may be more jagged and more quick thoughts. It may be longer, you know, it could be any number of ways, but it has been described to me several times in that instance, an episode. If you were talking to somebody in suicidal ideation, they’re usually saying things like, I’m so worthless. I, I, you know, I can’t do this anymore.
[00:34:40] And we as parents or caregivers are really tempted to say, oh my gosh, you have so much to live for. You have no idea. The future looks so bright, and that is not the right thing to. because we need to meet them where they are. And if that is darkness and despair, that darkness and despair is where we should go to meet our child who’s struggling, or child of a friend.
[00:35:08] And we just need to say, tell me more and shut up. Mm. Because a lot of really lovely things can happen in that moment where you shut your own mouth and you listen with the empathy, and you ask questions. Tell me more. How were you thinking of ending your life? How long have you struggled with this? So you can even ask questions because it shows that you’re listening and that you want, you know, to help.
[00:35:37] We don’t, at this point, we, we don’t wanna think about fixing, and you’re gonna have to take a deep breath because when a child tells you they’re thinking is suicide, this tsunami of emotions hit you and you’re like, No, that can’t, I can’t be hearing this. Right. But it’s really important not to freak out, to keep yourself as calm at whatever you need to do to do that and to prove to your child that you can be calm.
[00:36:12] Because kids are not, kids often don’t tell parents because they are afraid that you are gonna freak out. Yes. And we do. I mean, it’s a tough thing to hear. Yeah, 
[00:36:23] Brenda: so, okay. Those were really, really good, um, indicators or warning signs that you gave, and I, I hope that people really listen to those because, um, two things, you have to be really in tune with what’s going on with your child, right.
[00:36:43] To hear those things, for them to be able to, to even think that it’s okay to say something. Like that to you, even if they’re not being overt, but, you know, making those side comments about, you know, on Facebook or, um, you know, I might not have kids and, and get married. So being really in tune and then like you said, being in a state where they’re not afraid to tell you that you can sort of be grounded and in control in front of them.
[00:37:17] Of course, and we always say this for the moms in our community. Come to us and freak out with us, but not in front 
[00:37:23] anne moss: of your 
[00:37:24] Brenda: kid. Right. So you need that place. I’m wondering how if, if they’re really not talking, you know, a lot of kids just don’t talk. They’re just isolating. They’re not doing a lot of talking.
[00:37:39] Um, you can’t pull anything out of them. Even if you’re being curious and you’re using those open-ended questions and you’re doing all of the tricks. What, what can 
[00:37:49] anne moss: we do then? Is 
[00:37:50] Brenda: there anything that is helpful? I mean, is that where you have to just hope, maybe you can get them in with a therapist, or what do you do if they’re just not communicating 
[00:38:01] anne moss: with you?
[00:38:02] So before I talk about that relationship, I do wanna mention that when you are having that conversation with your child, you need to ask directly, are you thinking of suicide? Mm. Are you thinking of killing yourself? You must ask that directly, and you can preface that with. . Well, I know that you’ve had a recent breakup and you’ve had some other things going on in your life, cuz it’s never just one thing, right?
[00:38:29] It’s always a constellation of issues in their life. That hit all at once. And then you can say, are you, you know, could you be thinking of suicide? So the not talking to you, we found that a lot with teenagers. And what I usually say to parents or ask them, are you telling them about yourself? Are you being vulnerable?
[00:38:54] Mm. Or are you just expecting them to answer all these questions when they never have before, when you’ve never opened up about anything about yourself? Mm. So, I find that it’s a process to change this relationship, and I actually have an ebook on that, and it’s nine ways to Build Resilience in your Kids.
[00:39:17] And it is sort of this what I’m gonna talk about and that ebook has a lot of, and it’s a free ebook and it has a lot of examples and I’ll send you the um, link if anybody won’t sit down like that. Yeah. But basically it is asking more question. Listening more and then asking their advice. You know, I, um, I’m at back at work now and boy, that transition was so awkward and difficult.
[00:39:45] I, I felt like I didn’t even know how to talk to anybody at work. It was so embarrassing. Um, How do you, how do you feel about that? Have you noticed anything about that? You know, kind of showing that you’re vulnerable. That, or I’ve got to give a presentation this morning, I’m a basket case. Can you give me a random hug?
[00:40:11] Right. I’m really gonna lose it. Right. I just feel like so much hinges on this. Do you have any coping strategies you use? Those are ways to kinda open up and be vulnerable. Part two of that would be, so you’re talking to your kid, he’s upset that he did really poorly on a test. Listen with the empathy and not like, oh, well you should study more next time.
[00:40:38] Just ask them. What would help you prepare better next time? Mm-hmm. , because you know, usually this when stuff like this happens and gosh, I’ve had a lot of failures too, that was an opportunity for me to learn to do it a different way and you know, so asking them more questions and then not right then because you wanna listen to what they have to say.
[00:41:09] But at other times, you can give examples of where you’ve fallen flat on your face, but it ended up being a positive thing, but it was agony while you were there, you know? Right. Yeah. I lost my job. I thought this was gonna be my dream. And then I turn around and I find this other career, and oh my gosh, this is amazing.
[00:41:31] You know, because that’s where the good stuff happens. Right. And we. for kids to understand that failure is actually an opportunity and where we learn the best things, but we don’t wanna say that directly. We wanna ask questions and at other times talk about when we’ve fallen flat on our own face, so it doesn’t happen right away.
[00:41:59] Some kids will open up immediate. But if you ask them, you know, I have this issue at work and I really wanna sit by a window. Should I ask my boss, what do you think I should do? They may not answer, but I can guarantee you they will think about it. And here’s the thing, they will be honored that you ask them, and they will start to understand that you are confident in their ability to problem solve.
[00:42:28] Mm. So it’s kind of modeling that. And part three is finding help for yourself. So there, you’ve got a lot of people who are part of your community. Their loved ones need to know that they’re a part of that community and they come to your community to find support and help. That’s modeling, help Seeking is a sign of strength.
[00:42:53] Yeah. And it’s like I’m, I’m totally wigging out. I’m not handling this well, so I’m gonna go get some support for myself so that I understand how to support you and how to change and shift within myself to be able to kind of understand all this and put it into context. Yeah. 
[00:43:22] Brenda: I’m really glad that you.
[00:43:25] That, um, it’s okay to ask and that you should ask because I think there’s a, um, a misperception that if we even utter the word suicide or, or if we even ask the question, have you thought about this? Or are you thinking about this? That somehow that is going to manifest in. In the event happening, and what you’re saying is we need to talk about it.
[00:43:53] We need to, to ask them because not asking is more dangerous. So I guess what I’m saying is just asking your child, have you thought about killing yourself or ending your life? That’s not going to cause it to happen, 
[00:44:10] anne moss: right? A lot of people think that it plants the idea in their head, right? . If I go do a presentation and I do not address that in the presentation, or even when I do, first question that parents will ask me, am I giving them the idea?
[00:44:28] Right? When we ask people about suicide, you, you can’t plant that idea. I talk about it every day. I’ve never been suicidal in my life, right? Which is actually unusual. I will say. I’ve been in rooms where I’m in the minority. I mean, most people at some point in their life have thought about suicide. Hmm.
[00:44:53] And it actually gives kids the opportunity to tell you their story. It’s like, okay, now, now I can talk about it because somebody has said the word, and that’s why we want to actually use the word killing yourself or. because when we do, we’re inviting somebody who might be struggling to tell their story.
[00:45:20] Mm-hmm. now they may not be, and most people are not insulted, and if they are, I’d rather them be, be mad at me than dead. Yeah. I have asked that two thousands. I’ve had one. Get angry with me and she lost her own son to suicide. She was like, how dare you think that, you know, I would never do that cuz my son did that.
[00:45:44] And I said, well, a third of parents struggle with it and your language indicated that you may be, so I asked the question and she browbeat me. I I’m, I don’t care. Right? I, I wasn’t upset. I didn’t regret asking one. Everybody else has appreciated that I cared enough to ask. Right. Thank you for the concern.
[00:46:10] Yeah. Right. Well, and, and 
[00:46:12] Brenda: what you said is so true that I, I could see as a young person to finally have somebody like. Talk about the elephant in the room, right? If that has been on their mind, if they’ve been ideating, to be able to put a name to it, it could help just, just naming it and talking about it and knowing that I can talk to my mom or dad and they’re not going to freak out.
[00:46:36] They’re gonna actually be interested and curious and offer help. Um, I wanted to go back just to what you said about what he had written on Facebook and. I hear from parents sometimes that they will see things that their kids have put on Facebook. Well, probably not Facebook anymore. Snapchat or Instagram 
[00:46:57] anne moss: or wherever they are.
[00:46:59] Um, TikTok. TikTok. 
[00:47:01] Brenda: And they, they get worried because they see something that. Feels off and, you know, maybe looks like that. Um, but they also then think, oh, they’re just doing that for attention. Yeah. You know, um, that they’re not really thinking that, that’s just like the thing that kids say now. Um, so I’d be curious about kind of the social media influence and how, how do we take what we are seeing on social media?
[00:47:30] Like should we take that at face value or what’s, what’s the scoop with. , 
[00:47:36] anne moss: if you’re feeling despair, when you see the comment go with your gut that nine times outta 10, your gut would be right. What’s happening is that you talk yourself out, oh, I’m not qualified, or I’m not going near that, because then they’re gonna dump this big problem in my lap that I can’t solve.
[00:48:00] Well, let me relieve you. You’re not going to solve it. That’s not your job. Your job is to listen and then to tell a trusted adult or get support for that child, whether it’s a school counselor, a therapist, um, usually the county resources are really good and you’re looking for a suicide risk assessment.
[00:48:24] Let’s say a parent or child or a child comes to you and says, Martin posted something really kind of. then if you know Martin’s mom, it’s gonna be an awkward phone call. Call Martin’s mom, let her know. And if they’re not real open to that, if, if you know that, then call the school counselor at at school or, or a county resource.
[00:48:52] And some kids have even called 9 1 1 on their friends. I would not say nine one is a first resort. But a welfare check is, if there are no other options, is better. I I, like I said, I’d rather have a friend mad at me than death, and there was a story of a young man who was saying some alarming things to a friend.
[00:49:18] She happened to be female. They were not romantically involved, but he was talking to her and he admitted in some way that he was suicidal and she became, So when she hung up the phone, she called nine one one. The mom comes to the door and is like, what are the police doing here? And the police said it was a welfare check.
[00:49:40] They took the kid to the ER and he was pissed off. He was so mad at this girl. So the parent reached out to me and I’m like, I want you to tell the young lady that she did the right thing because right now she is suffering and she is like, oh my gosh, have I done the right thing? Please let her know. She did.
[00:50:03] And when your son starts ragging on her, you stand up for her, right? And say, I’m so glad she did. She did the right thing. She did it because she cares, right? She cares about you. And then two weeks later, She sent me a picture of the two of them hanging out. So, you know, he had, he had really gotten over being angry and realized what she had done for him, and he felt really touched by that.
[00:50:35] Yeah. So I think sometimes we have to help our children understand. What a loving, thoughtful thing and describe how hard it is to take that step. And once you get off and you’re like, I’m calling the police on somebody, they’re gonna knock on the door. People are gonna be freaked out. This is gonna happen, this is gonna happen.
[00:50:58] You know, that sets in motion a lot of things that are extremely uncomfortable. How easy is that to. Not very. Right, right. It’s so, so brave. Yes. Oh my gosh. The kid that goes to the school counselor and takes that time to say, you know, Sebastian posted something online that’s really alarming. This is what it is.
[00:51:23] What do you think? Yeah. That the kids have to tell another trusted adult. And if you are the adult that receives that information, you need to push, push that forward. And not next week, not next. As fast as you can, as soon as you can because you never know how soon that, that thought might turn into an action.
[00:51:47] Right. 
[00:51:48] Brenda: That’s really true. Better to be, have somebody pissed off at you than dead. So, yeah. Um, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Um, another quick question before we wrap up is a lot of parents, their kids are self-harming and. I wonder if that is a indicator or precursor, or, or are those things totally separate?
[00:52:13] Cause I, I know it’s so common and I know that you have a, a, um, what is, there’s a really cool like self-harm safety box that you have, which I want you to talk about. But, um, is that something related? Like, how worried should we be about suicide if we are seeing our kids self harm? 
[00:52:34] anne moss: So, uh, self harm is called nonsuicidal self injury, and kids who are self-harming are really trying to kind of take all this stuff that’s up here that they don’t understand, but they understand a cut, they understand blood, they understand the physical.
[00:52:56] So they’re trying to take the intangible and make it tangible, and that’s one reason people cut. Mm-hmm. , 
[00:53:05] Brenda: your 
[00:53:05] anne moss: kid is not trying to kill themselves. However, they are considered higher risk simply because they develop this threshold for. and it makes, it’s that kind of one barrier for kids to, to not die by suicide is the fear of pain of, of doing it as it’s happening.
[00:53:30] So kids who are self harmers are no longer worried about that pain if they’ve been doing it for years and years and years. So it’s kind of takes away one of those protective factors, which is, you know, fear of pain. Mm. So I would say it’s not the same thing, but they are at slightly, it’s, it isn’t the same thing at all.
[00:53:54] But they are at higher risk because of that pain barrier. Right. And I have something called the self-harm safety box. It was a post on my site written by Jody Betty, who is uh, in recovery from decades of self. She was, um, exposed to a lot of sexual trauma as a child, and she managed to get away from self-harm behavior by doing this self-harm safety box.
[00:54:26] So she had written an article, people have heard about it, and they would look it up, and I had so many hits on that page. This child would reach out and say, I did that safety box and it worked, and here’s what I put in mind, and here’s how I decorated the box. So in that self harm safety box free ebook on my site.
[00:54:51] It. It talks about Jody. I give that little speech kind of about what it is and what it isn’t. Then Jody talks about her personal experience with it. Mm. And then I have a 14 year old who tells, you know, shows pictures of what her self-harm safety box looks like, what she puts in it, and how that’s helped to move away from self harm.
[00:55:15] Usually when they reach out to me online and they’ve been self-harm. They want to stop and want parents to understand that this in behavior, that you wake up tomorrow and you just end it. It especially the cutting, cuz there’s usually a lot of blood involved. It takes a while because they have to replace that coping strategy with a new coping strategy.
[00:55:42] Yeah. So it’s very painful to be in that place where, Uh, well, they relapse and they just started. But let’s say they’re doing it, you know, three times a week and they go to once a week. That’s progress. And we need to see it as progress, and we need to not freak out that everything is lost, right? Because there’s been, you know, another incident, right?
[00:56:09] It takes a while to move away from that. 
[00:56:13] Brenda: Mm. That’s really, really helpful. So we’ll put a link to that in the show notes so that you can, if you’re listening, you can find that. I think that’s really important. And we’ll link also to, um, all of your eBooks, because I know there’s a lot and, and people can browse those.
[00:56:29] Um, what would you wanna just leave parents with who are listening? They’re all, you know, in various stages. Um, working with their families and their kids with substance use, and that just adds a whole nother layer onto all of this. But what would you wanna leave parents with? 
[00:56:47] anne moss: I think that, um, one thing I wish I would’ve told my son as much as I want you to get, well, I love you, even if you don’t.
[00:56:57] Hmm. That’s beautiful, that my love is unconditional. And I told him I loved him, but I think in his mind he thought that was conditional. And if he was a heroin addict, and I put air quotes on that because I don’t usually use that phrase. Yeah. That it would be so ugly that I would no longer love him. And that was his impression.
[00:57:23] And maybe if I had been very direct in. What I just said, then we might have had a different outcome. I’m not punishing myself. Yeah. But, 
[00:57:34] Brenda: um, well, you have insight that is really, really critical for people to hear, and I’m sorry that you have that insight and thank you for. Doing what you do and, and taking care of yourself so that you can continue to do what you do.
[00:57:51] I know that’s, you know, um, to, to probably a lesser degree. I’m, you know, I keep myself in the pain as, as well as you do, right? Just because we know it helps people, but you also have to really take care of yourself. So that you can continue to do the work that you do. So I appreciate you doing that and being willing to be here and share with 
[00:58:12] anne moss: us.
[00:58:12] So thank you a thousand times over. Well, thank you so much for having me on such a very sensitive topic. I appreciate it. Okay, 
[00:58:23] Brenda: that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can 
[00:58:27] anne moss: go to brenda 
[00:58:28] Brenda: zza.com/podcast. 
[00:58:31] anne moss: All of the episodes are listed there, 
[00:58:34] Brenda: and you can also find curated playlists there, so that’s very helpful.
[00:58:39] You might also wanna download a free ebook I wrote, it’s called Hindsight. Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It’ll give you some 
[00:58:49] anne moss: insight as to why your son or daughter 
[00:58:51] Brenda: might be doing what they. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to 
[00:58:57] anne moss: cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time.
[00:59:02] You can 
[00:59:02] Brenda: grab that free from brenda 
[00:59:04] anne moss: zain.com/hindsight. 
[00:59:07] Brenda: Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it, and I hope that these episodes are helping you stay 
[00:59:13] anne moss: strong 
[00:59:14] Brenda: and 
[00:59:14] anne moss: be very, very good to yourself, and I’ll meet you right back here next week.