Coaching Episode #2: Dealing With Manipulation, Parenting Paralysis, and Feeling Guilty About Holding Boundaries

Speakers : Brenda Zane, Cheryl Brenda I’m really happy that today, we have another coaching episode. However, I am again going to apologize for the audio quality today, I just have to tell you the funniest thing about this, I got a new microphone. And I was excited because the sound quality is supposed to be much better. But I kept having these issues and the sound was really bad. Well, I finally figured out that I had the whole microphone and system plugged in upside down. I know it doesn’t seem like a microphone could be upside down, but it actually can. So now that I have figured that out, you shouldn’t hear these problems anymore. And thank you so much for bearing with me on these. Brenda So this is our second coaching episode. If you missed the first one with Casey Be sure to rewind back to Episode 87. It was really great. And Casey was working on figuring out how to help her family adjust as her son was now home from treatment, living in the home with the family, and all the complexities that come with that. So super helpful for many of you who are either in that boat now, or if you are soon to be in that boat. So back to Episode 87 with Casey, today’s episode is with Cheryl, she graciously allowed me to record our coaching session and shared some of the positive things that have happened since her son has been away at treatment. She shared about the challenges that she has with holding boundaries with him and her other kids as well. And she shares how it can be paralyzing for her sometimes to hold these boundaries when he reacts aggressively, and how she really wants more balance between her and her husband in this particular area. We talk about what happens when Cheryl gives into her son’s manipulation, and how it is so hard for her to let her kids struggle. Can you relate? There is so much you’re going to relate to in this episode. And I can’t think Cheryl enough for sharing it with us. So get comfy. And let’s dive in. Brenda Welcome Cheryl to a coaching episode of Hopestream we were chatting just a few minutes ago and I was saying that this is a little bit of an experimental format. But you’ve been in the stream community for a while now. I was trying to remember when you joined. Do you remember? It’s been a couple months, maybe like three months? Four months?

Cheryl: Yeah. At least. Brenda Time flies, that you’ve been a really active member in the community and just I’ve loved getting to know you. And so I was really excited that you submitted to do a coaching episode. And this really is time for you. And we’re just letting people sort of over here because as you know, from being in the community, we all struggle with very similar things. We all have our own unique, you know, circumstances but a lot of the root things that we deal with are the same. So I’m just grateful for you to be here and to be willing to share with us The community and with all the listeners.

Cheryl: Thank you so much. I’m grateful to be here and for you to have me. I’m really excited to get into this and just be coached. Brenda Yeah. Well, why don’t you start out and just give us a little bit of context for your family? I think that’s really helpful for people to understand, like, how many people in your family what’s going on? Not from a deep, emotional issue, but just kind of logistically, like, where is everybody ages? That type of thing, just so we have a little bit of grounding in your life?

Cheryl: Yeah, so I have three kids. So with my husband, my oldest is going to be 17. And my middle child is 14. And my youngest is nine. And my 14-year-old is the one who went to wilderness and now is a therapeutic boarding school. Brenda Okay. He’s the one that introduced us to each other.

Cheryl: Yes. Which I’m so grateful for. Yes. Definitely. Brenda Okay, so he went to wilderness. He’s been in therapeutic boarding school. How long has he been there?

Cheryl: Since August, mid-August. Brenda Okay. And now in case people are listening two years from now, it is now October, end of October. So it’s been a few months that he’s been there?

Cheryl: Yes, yes. It’s been a few months. And yeah, it was really challenging at first knowing that he was going to go there. Very emotional, but it’s gotten much easier. Okay. Still bumps in the road. And that’s the kind of stuff I’m here to talk about. How to deal with that. Brenda I mean, you went through just having been in your shoes and giving my child the gift of wilderness therapy, which is how I like to approach it, because I, I seriously believe it is a gift that is one of the most difficult decisions I think a parent could ever make. So you’ve been through a lot in the last six months or so I would imagine it’s been about six months, since he went to wilderness.

Cheryl: May. Yeah. May 2021. Brenda So lots happened?

Cheryl: Yeah, it’s been a roller coaster ride of emotions. And there’s been a lot of growth in the process for all of us as a family unit. And there has been light, you know, in the midst of the darkness, which I’m seeing now, and I’m seeing how much of a blessing it’s been that we did send him because I doubted myself so much in the beginning. And what did I do? You know, did we make the right decision? Oh, my gosh, what’s gonna happen to him? So I did go through a lot of that. And I’m very torn. But now I see. Wow, if we did not do that, if it just would not have been good right now, or, you know, a few years down the line? Because I did think it was a face he was going through. And I’m just glad we caught it earlier than later. Brenda And those are very hard decisions to make as a family. And I’d be curious to know, you mentioned that you’ve seen growth, and you’ve seen some light, what are just kind of briefly, you don’t have to go into a ton of detail. But what would you say has been some of the growth in the light that you’ve seen since he left.

Cheryl: So him and his father, you know, had a lot of struggles together. The personalities are very similar, and they would butt heads a lot. And there wasn’t a real good foundation and communication. And then also between me and my husband, we weren’t always on the same page, on how to discipline him and handle him. So we have learned how to communicate better, and my husband and I and to be on the same page. And I’ve seen better relationship with his father, you know, when he’s gone out to visit, they had a visit recently, my husband went to like his father, and they did so well with one another. And, you know, iron was able to communicate his feelings when he was upset about something, which was not something he was doing before.

Cheryl: And so I just see that he’s able to communicate better and verbalize his feelings and not turn it into go inward so much, even though he still does that. And that’s been the challenge there and us as parents learning how to deal with that and not take it to heart or internalize it ourselves. Yeah, and just Just as a family unit how and just having that space where our kids because our other kids were suffering a lot with everything going on in the home, and I see now how much they’re growing my oldest son like, wow, he’s like, lost so much in these past few month because he was just so concerned about his little brother, and always watching out for him whether it was on social media and, you know, or his friends telling him what he’s been up to, or being at home and seeing what was going on, like, and then my youngest daughter, like her, like her emotions, and how she was just always on edge, what is going to happen next. And now I just see this lightness and this happiness and freedom, that we all we have this break. Which has been that like, Okay, we could for you. Right, you know, and just have some space to re organize everything and bring everything back together in a healthier manner. Brenda Yeah. So it sounds like there’s been in just a short amount of time. I mean, obviously, there were issues before but in the last six months, you’ve really had a very big swing of, of all kinds of things from being I’m sure very scared. concerned, is this a phase? Is this not a phase? What do we do? Do we pull the trigger on something as big as an out-of-home placement in wilderness therapy and therapeutic boarding school? All the while you’re navigating your other kids, your relationship with your husband? COVID work, like so much? That’s a lot.

Cheryl: Yes, yes, definitely. Brenda And then you’re seeing some positives, too, which is always nice. And I just love how you talk about the relationship. And I could just, I had this visual of your husband and his dad going to see your son, which is like three generations of men doing some really healing work, which is incredible, right, because a lot of the things that we deal with are intergenerational, and they get handed down, not intentionally from, you know, any sort of negative aspect, but they just do until we interrupt that cycle. And so for you to say that your son was able to communicate his feelings with words, in a way that he wasn’t able to in the past is just, that’s incredible.

Cheryl: Yes, yes, it’s beautiful to see. And, you know, even when we go visit the pictures where he puts his arm around his dad, which he never did, since he was maybe like nine years old, 10 years old. So to see that bond, it’s been really beautiful, and the healing, then immense amount of healing that’s been going on. And, you know, I thought about it, that we would not have been able to get that here, like the amount of therapy and like, not only with the therapist, but with his peers, you know, like that I heard, I heard is just so important. And I’ve just been educated as a parent, right? You know, so much, and all the books they’ve told us to read and just going to the sessions ourselves, like, I’m grown as a parent. So as my husband, Brenda yeah, it’s a gift, it’s really a gift you, you receive that it’s one of those hidden gems, right that, would you necessarily want this, to have this amount of sort of turmoil in your family? No, but one of the beautiful things, and I hear this from lots of different people is my relationships are better now, because I have so many more tools to work with. And I’ve just learned so much that you wouldn’t necessarily learn if all three of your kids were just doing awesome. And, you know, moving along as expected.

Cheryl: Absolutely. Absolutely. Brenda So today, you know, coaching, and I know you’ve worked with therapists, and obviously, you’re probably therapy’d out by now with all of the folks that you work with, with him being in treatment, but this is really for you, which is different than when you’re working with a family therapy situation. And again, I am not a therapist. So this is a coaching session. So I think the difference in coaching and therapy that’s important to explain is that therapy tends to look back quite a bit and say, what got us to this point, to really understand why you are, where you are, and then how to move forward. Brenda Coaching looks at where are we right now? Where are some of the friction points? And where do you want to be in the future? So it’s very much action-oriented moving forward. So I’d be curious to know when you kind of think about what’s going on in life right now for you When you look out six months or so, is there a problem that you want to talk about? Because this is your time? So is there a problem that you want to talk about or a challenge that you’re facing with the family? Is there something that you personally are like, wow, now that I have this little break? I actually, I want to work on this on myself. What comes to mind for you, when you think about what, you know, taking some action moving forward?

Cheryl: Well, I think for me, what’s been challenging has been the boundary thing, setting those boundaries and being firm with them and not allowing the manipulation to occur because my son can be very manipulative. Yes, and charming. And he looks at me with those eyes. Sure, many parents can relate to this. And I just sometimes given many times, I would, and towards the end, when he was here, I was getting a lot more firm. But, you know, something happened where I took his phone, and that just blew up into something bigger than it should have been. And it kind of, in many ways caused some PTSD in me aware, I became kind of paralyzed in my parenting, and didn’t know what to do. Like, I was just like, Okay, well, I thought, This is what I was supposed to do.

Cheryl: But I was not doing it in the right way, or didn’t have the tools. And even though I thought I did, you know, now I look back, I’m like, Yeah, that could have been done differently. And that’s what, when he comes back, and I know that therapists will help with, you know, transitioning back and all that, but in the meantime, I want to work on that. And because my husband has been more of the disciplinarian, and I want us to become more balanced, where I can put those firm and loving boundaries, and not feel that guilt. And that, you know, whatever it is I’m feeling at that moment. And deal with him is like, manipulation and getting upset. Brenda So you feel like you know, that he can be manipulative? And that your tendency might be to give in? How does it feel when you give in?

Cheryl: Feels like I’ve failed. And like, oh, there it goes. Again, that same pattern, like, and then there’s a sigh of relief? Like, I don’t have to deal with that. Right now. Yeah. But then I know later, I’ll pay for it. And I’m like, Okay, well, it just turns into a bigger monster, which I’m aware of. But at that moment, I just don’t want to deal with it. And it’s the I guess, it’s, I don’t want to deal with that pain, or the disappointment of my child or them struggling. And that’s what I’m learning is that you have to let your kids struggle. That’s what this whole process has been. It’s been seeing them go through wilderness. I mean, that was the biggest struggle for me as a parent to see him struggle so much. Brenda So when you give in, you feel, on one hand, you feel like, Oh, I did it again. And you know, there’s going to be some stuff to deal with down the road. But on the other hand, you’re going like, Okay, I don’t really have to deal with that right now. So there’s a push and a pull there. That’s really difficult. And I’m sure causes you some they call it and coaching cognitive dissonance where you’re like, Well, I’ve got these two things that I’m trying to hold, and they don’t go together. They’re like oil and water. But one tends to win out more than the other. So that’s a real thing, for sure. Especially when you do see them blow up. And it’s scary. Brenda That sounds like it could have been a really scary situation. When you take this specially with these kids. You take their technology, oh my gosh, he would have, you know, you could think took away a million dollars online. It’s very, it’s very traumatic for them, which is hard for us to understand. Right? Because like it’s a phone, right? Come on. But I do think it’s much more than that for them. And then you feel paralyzed. Because you’re like, What do I do? What do I do the next time this happens? And so what would make you feel more prepared for that time when you’re going to have another because you know, it’s going to come you’re going to have another situation where you are going to have to hold a boundary. What would make you feel more prepared for that?

Cheryl: Well, I know Speaking to the therapist and getting tips and learning the cues, you know, and how to speak to him. And I think, maybe practicing it, reading a book on it. I mean, I know when I am prepared in advance, then I’m able to handle the situation better. But when I’m in that moment, you know, sometimes things just all go out the door. And I forget what to do next. And so that’s where the challenge lies, I think even when we’re in our therapy sessions with him, and he just goes into one of his moods, and there he is, he’s like, manipulating the situation, because he just wants to come home. And he’s fine with his kids that, you know, his peers, he’s fine with the therapist, he’s fine with the staff, like he’s laughing and having a great time.

Cheryl: But when he sees us, it’s like, a switch goes off, and I’m practicing there, on how to handle his mood, and his manipulation and not going into his space and just allowing him to be. It takes a lot, though, from me, you know, not to engage too much in it. Because I know the first therapy call we had, I just, it’s different than wilderness, because now you’re seeing them. And it’s not through like letters. So I saw his face, and I just blasted out in tears. And he was fine. Before that. He was like, hi, you know, and he was okay. And then I just busted down in tears. And he went into one of his moods again. And there he was, like, manipulating the situation, because he knew that that was I was upset. And, okay, here’s my chance. To make mom feel even worse, so she, and he’s even told my husband like if it were up to mom, she would have had any home by now. And, and that’s when he asked me later, like, if I would go visit him, just me and my, you know, their son, and I just couldn’t do it.

Cheryl: Because I just felt like, he would pull at my heartstrings and I would come home. We just bring him back, you know, to my husband, and I didn’t want to go there. Yeah, and I don’t know if that was right. I don’t like these are the things that I struggle with. And I’m, this is I know him being there, as I’ll practice for how I’m going to handle him when he comes home. Brenda I think you really are aware because you said that when you are more prepared. And when you’re educated, like if you’ve read some books, or you listen to podcasts, or whatever it is to educate yourself, and when you’re practicing. And so a great way to practice is like this in a coaching session or with other moms in our community or with your husband, or even practicing on your other kids. Right? Like they don’t have to know what you’re doing. You can just yes on them.

Cheryl: That’s true. And I have been actually with the stuff I’ve been reading. Brenda How is it? Yeah. How does that feel when you do that?

Cheryl: It feels good. Because I’m like, oh, that worked pretty well. You know, like, I don’t remember all the things that I talked to, like done with my own with the kids at home. I wish I could think of examples. But it’s been oh, like setting doing the boundary thing. And just saying no, and sticking with it, especially with my daughter who has the cutest thing. But she’s getting at the age where you know, she’s pushing back more, and please, please, come on, please. And I will just keep saying no, we are not doing that. I know you feel that way and sucks. And then she lets go of it. And then we move on. And then I feel better because I stayed firm and didn’t give in to her. And granted like my son, he probably would have handled it differently. I don’t because his personality is so different. But he’s doing the therapy and we are so I’m and I’m practicing here with the kids. So that’s been helpful. Brenda Well gives you some confidence, right? That, okay, I can do this. And I think not just in seeing the impact on your daughter, but seeing the impact on yourself. So when you do that with her, you’re not feeling that ick, that oil and water the dissonance of like, I wish I hadn’t given it again. Yes, you’re feeling more confident, which has that self-efficacy of like, okay, then I can do this again. And it’s not guaranteed that it’s going to go the same. But I now feel a little bit more confident and empowered to do that, because I see what happens. So I’m, I’m wondering when if you think about when he comes home, and you’re reorienting to a new dynamic in the family, which will happen? What are you most afraid of? Or what do you kind of fear the most might happen,

Cheryl: that he’ll go back to his old patterns and ways and especially with the whole technology thing and his phone, I mean, he hasn’t had his phone since May, or computer access. And that’s been the main cause the main issue, the stuck problems he was causing with his phone and computer. And so there’s a lot of concern there. And I know they’re going to help us like transition him back. And it’s going to be a slow process, but and I keep thinking, Okay, well, he has to be kept. He’s the kind of kid that needs to be kept busy. A lot of things that happened with COVID was you put this child who needs nice to be out active, who plays sports and this social kid and put him stick him in a room in front of a computer, it’s bound to cause a lot of problems.

Cheryl: So and it did. And so, and I’m thinking, Okay, well, we’re not going to be there. And he’s going to be stuck in that room. And he’s going to be out and doing activities. So my mind goes into all how can I keep them busy, so he doesn’t get into trouble, you know, are like just the same going to gravitating towards those friends again, even though we made from boundaries while he was in wilderness that he can’t hang out with those friends anymore, which was really hard for him to take at first. But it seems like he’s coping with it now. Like he’s accepted it. Yeah. But there’s still that. What if, Brenda It’s really scary. So what would it look like? Let’s say he’s, let’s just do a little time travel. And he’s home now. And he’s been home for three or four months? What does it look like? Or what’s happening or not happening in your house or in your relationship? That tells you things are going really well? What would be happening for you to say, hey, Brenda, she’s home, and things are going really well. And I said, Okay, what’s happening? What would that look like?

Cheryl: The first thing that comes into my mind is structure. And that’s what was lacking, especially for him. And I actually myself, I’m doing another coaching program, where I’m learning that I don’t have enough structure in my own life, where I’m scheduled, it’s kind of like, whatever, you know, and I’m an artist, too. So it’s like, okay, go with the flow, whatever happens today, right? So I have this like, kind of free spirit, a feeling, and I’m learning that, especially with a kid like Aaron, I need to have structure for him. And that’s what I see is giving him that hear, because he’s had it for so long. And that’s something that would really help our family and to communicate. I had a lot of difficulty with communicating with, especially my husband, about the kids, you know, and what’s been going on because I didn’t want to cause like, any more problems, you know, so I would just keep it to myself. And so I feel like that would be those two things would be the key to and the boundaries, learning to be firm yet loving. Right? Brenda So some structure for yourself. For the kids, for the whole family, that continued conversation and communication that you’re learning and practicing, so that you feel more confident and really kind of being, I don’t want to say assertive, but gently assertive, maybe, you know, yeah, if if that’s appropriate, and maybe not so gently assertive, if that’s appropriate, and to be okay with that. Right? If it needs to be more assertive, and then the boundaries? And that’s a lot. That’s a lot to work on.

Cheryl: Yeah, yeah. And that’s where sometimes I go into overwhelm. Oh, my goodness, like, it seems like so much. But it’s taking. I feel a little baby steps right now, to get to that, right. I’m not putting that all on myself. And I’m just thinking about this now, when he comes back, but practicing everything right now. Slowly. So I’m prepared when he’s here in a few months. Yeah. Brenda So if you think of another situation where you might get into conflict, maybe it’s not as you know, intense as it would be with him. But if there’s another situation where maybe it’s family or community or friends, or something like that, how do you prepare yourself? Like, what’s a time in the past where you’ve had to go into something where, you know, there’s probably going to be some conflict? How do you prepare yourself for that?

Cheryl: Well, I, in the past, I didn’t, I did not like conflict at all, I just would run away from it, or shut down. And now I’m learning that I can’t run away from it. And I do my best to talk it through. And if it gets heated, I know, with my husband, I have a code word. And once I say that word, then we take a break. And then we come back when we’re both calm. And we talk about it, and we’re able to resolve it. But that was after going through so much therapy and coaching to get to that point. Brenda That’s amazing. That’s great. And that works for you.

Cheryl: That works very well for us. Yeah. And I do it with my kids, where if I see they are getting heated up, I tell them, Okay, we need a break. And then we could come back and talk about it. And sometimes, like especially my oldest, he doesn’t let go of it. And I will just stay quiet until he gets everything out of his system. Right. And then then I talk and we had like, a family conflict about two weeks ago, right before we were leaving the house. I mean, on a Friday night, we’re going to my mom’s house, and yeah, my husband, my oldest, I just got into it. And okay, and I was like, okay, Cheryl, how are you going to handle this right now? Yes. Brenda And before you keep going, I just want to ask what, what’s happening in your body, when the conflict starts?

Cheryl: I get anxious. Brenda And how does that show up?

Cheryl: It shows up as wanting to just leave, like, I just want to get out of the house. You know, like, just get me out of here. And then I get into my mind I get to blame, like, gosh, I can like he’s doing this again. And it’s the two of them again, like, if he didn’t do that, then this wouldn’t happen. Why did he do you know, like, it goes into that cycle again, instead of being in that moment and handling what’s going on, right? And so I let them do their thing. And then I go into rescue mode, trying to like rescue everyone and get in the middle of it. Brenda So the tendency is to want to leave so you’re feeling anxiety, then you’ve been you think I just want to get out of here. I just want this to go away. And then there’s some blame about, well, this could have been avoided if you had done this or you had done that or you hadn’t said this. And then it’s like, Wait, I got to rescue the situation. I got to step in and fix this. Does that sound? Does that sound right?

Cheryl: So yeah, that’s what that’s been the pattern in our family. So yeah, and by within an hour, everything was calm again, we resolved Oh, all the conflict, everyone apologized. And then yeah, we’re in the past that would have been a couple of days in the making. Brenda So there’s been big improvement. Yeah, that’s where you really can tell when you reflect back and you think, oh, man, in the past this, this, and this would have happened. And now, it still happened. And it’s okay. Right? It’s okay, that conflict happens. And now you know how to work through it. So when you apply that to your son coming home, is there anything either from I love your code word, I love your ability to stay quiet and let it pass. And know that you don’t have to fix it? Are there things that you can be pulling from this time? Because it’s a little tricky because he’s still not home? But as you said, you’re practicing, you’re preparing? Are there things that you think I might want to try that as an experiment to see what happens when he comes home?

Cheryl: Yeah, I think I don’t know if the codeword would work with him. But I think just being quiet and listening, because what I remember him saying all the time, but you are not mom, you’re not listening, you’re not listening. So I think about that, and I have been more in tune with my kids, even my little daughter right now. She says, You’re not listening to me. You know, mom, and I do I go into another world sometimes. And I escape, you know, and my mind just go somewhere else. I daydream a lot. So it’s bringing myself back, which I’m learning how to do and trying to be more aware with my kids, and what they’re saying and what they’re trying to communicate with me. So that’s just been it’s been a practice. And Brenda And because you’re actively thinking about this working on it. And it’s not your full-time job, right? It’s just, it’s the stuff that gets woven in between all of the other bits of life. And so it can be exhausting. At the end of the day, it’s like, oh, my gosh.

Cheryl: Yeah, I wish there was the like, I feel like there should have been a college for parents. Brenda I agree. Well, and I hear this, and I don’t know if somebody is very entrepreneurial. And I’m sure there. I mean, I know there are organizations that focus on this, but it is a shame that it takes something like this to really get us rallied around some of these concepts, really focused on things like being aware, listening, not reacting, you know, having a response versus a reaction, but it is what it is. Here we are.

Cheryl: it is what it is. Yes. Brenda So in the next couple of weeks, so you’re having regular therapy sessions with your son, is that correct? Yes. Once a week? Yeah. Once a week, and they’re on video. So when you think in the next couple of weeks about what you have planned, and what’s going on in your life, and in his program, is there anything that you think of like, man, if this could just shift in a positive direction in the next two to three weeks? What would that be?

Cheryl: Well, is the way our relationship is on video on our therapy sessions, because when we see him, it’s great, you know, and we go out and have a great time, and there have been some dips in our visits. But during our sessions for on the phone, it’s just such a can be such a struggle, and I thought, well, maybe I need to write down things to talk about. And I haven’t tried that and even maybe reach out to the therapists and be like, Is there stuff we can like? Do you have any ideas on how we can make these therapy sessions more productive? Because it’s just sometimes it’s long moments of silence and just him looking upset and moping and I’d really love to shift that. Brenda Yeah. Because what does that do to you, when you see that,

Cheryl: when I see him like that, sad, it makes me all those feelings well up inside of me of oh my gosh, like, is staying there too long or, like doubt, you know and guilt and all those negative emotions and I know like that just in another part of me knows that just indicates he needs to be there longer like the therapist says to get you know the maximum benefits and get to where he needs because we see so much improvement. But there’s this one area that has been just challenging to see and be part of. Brenda Yeah, because it’s hard when you’ve got a call scheduled and then you end up feeling sad, and you end up feeling guilty. That’s really, that’s, that’s a hard thing to go into the call with the right energy, if that’s been your experience in the past, this is probably going to go in this direction.

Cheryl: And I can’t wait till the end. Sometimes I can I’m like, When is this gonna end like and it’s horrible. Because I love my kid and I want to see him but I’m just reading it. You know, I don’t mind a session we have with the therapist the first 30, 40 minutes. But the end of it. I’m like, Oh my gosh, here we go. Brenda Right. So it’s a combo. So you have some time with us. And then he comes on to the call.

Cheryl: yeah. So and, you know, we get so much from just talking to the therapist, but I just don’t feel like we get as much with our son. Like, it’s just the same thing. Oh, are noteworthy I mean, at least these past few weeks sessions, you know, except maybe one where there was some structure to the call? Brenda Well, yeah, it’s interesting that you say that because you said that maybe writing some stuff down would help or talking to the therapist before about this awkward kind of painful time with him. And you’d mentioned structure before. So it sounds like that might be something to think about adding in. And I also just wonder, do you have to have that time with him? If it’s not productive? If it’s making you feel bad? Do you have to do it?

Cheryl: I don’t know. That’s the thing. Like, that’s something I want to talk to the therapist about, like, Is this helping us in any way where he’s just upside and manipulating? And I was even thinking, what if we had a little break where he would see oh, well, they’re not around for me to manipulate right now. And that might shift his behavior a bit. I mean, I remember reading something like that in a book where the therapist was like, Yeah, your parents haven’t written to you because she was, you know, acting up. And she was like, What do you mean, they have written to me, and they waited, you know, a little bit. And then they finally wrote her letter, and she was so happy about it. I’m like thinking, gosh, maybe we need to do something like that as well, because it just feels like it’s all being taken for granted. And I don’t know, I know, there’s another where you’re like, I don’t know, there’s a lot to figure out Brenda Well, it sounds like talking with a therapist that you have that time beforehand, would be really great. And it also sounds like a really good opportunity for practicing some of those boundaries, right to say, hey, we would really love to talk with you. If we could hear about what’s going on if we could, you know, doesn’t have to be happy, happy. Everybody’s smiling. And yeah, fake by any means, but to say we really want to hear, how are you doing? What’s going on? What’s your day? Like? Did you go to the gym, you know, just stuff like that. And if we’re not going to be able to have those, then we’re gonna opt out for a while just to hold a boundary to say, we’re not okay with this. Brenda And if you’re not willing to put in some effort, where we’re here, we’re showing up, we’re willing to put in some effort. If you’re not, that’s okay. Let us know when you are. And we’d love to chat. And that might be a powerful boundary to try out, obviously talk with his therapist because I don’t know what’s going on with him. So I’m completely saying this in a vacuum. And you guys might know what a more appropriate boundary would be because you’re obviously deep into it, but it could be a good practice. Like you said, I feel better when I’m prepared. And I’ve practiced and I’m a little bit more educated. And so do you think that could be an opportunity to practice some of that?

Cheryl: Yeah, absolutely, like a light bulb moment came on for me, because I have thought about that. And I kind of put it to the side. And I do feel like, there needs to be some kind of boundary, because this pattern is going on. And I and my husband, I talked about it, we’re like, he has done everything else to manipulate the situation. And this is his last resort, you know, to show us I’m really not happy, and I want to come home. And this is how I’m going to do it to you guys. Right? And that’s, you know, these are the patterns we want to eliminate, and, you know, start something better to replace it. So, yeah, I just love that. And I will discuss it with my husband and therapists and see what decision we can come to help with this. Brenda Right. And I would offer to that, you wouldn’t even have to start out with that. But just to explain to him what your goals are for those calls, so that you’re not just Yeah, starting out with, well, this is what we’re doing. But just to really share with him, our goal for these calls is, whatever it is, yeah, he his goals are different. And so that’s why things are icky. So that could be a way to start it and then say, from there, now we need to figure out what the boundary is with it. But to at least approach it from a standpoint of we really, really love to see you on video. That could be another option. Does it have to be video? Could it just be a call? Brenda You know, sometimes that that element of video can just be you know, he seen his mom, right? He seen you, which is really powerful. It’s like, oh, my gosh, my mom, and she’s sitting in the house and I right, he can see the room and he can see the dog. And that has to be really hard for somebody. So, you know, it might just be a time to explore some options to that of what else could we do to make this a little bit more comfortable and productive for all of us? Because if it’s not productive, then why put yourself through?

Cheryl: And that’s what I’ve been thinking. Like, it’s just the same thing every week, and we’re not getting anywhere. I mean, it’s been like this for about like, the feels like three weeks. So yeah, but I love this. This is great. Brenda Well, I will be following up with you because I get to do that. So I’ll be reaching out and checking in with you. How do you feel overall about about talking today? And sort of? Has there been a shift for you that you feel okay, about?

Cheryl: Absolutely. Yeah, it just felt great. And I have a lot of ideas now. Yeah, especially, that’s been the one thing in this present moment, with him being away as therapy calls. So this has helped a lot. And even to see where we will be six months from now. Because that’s been a bit of a source of like, anxiety for me. Yeah. So that that helps. You know, everything we talked about some really grateful thank you so much. Brenda Well, thank you, and I’m sure all anybody who’s listening thanks, she was well, because you are vulnerable and real. These are real issues, and they’re really hard, really hard. And so I know people are going to be grateful to be able to listen in and just hear and relate to the things that you’re going through. Because it’s it can feel as you know, very lonely, to be out there.

Cheryl: Very lonely and but when, for me, it was, you know, finding you and the support group, you know, through the stream, that loneliness went away like it dissolved and to see other moms out there, just like me going through, because you just think like, I’m the only one who’s quote unquote messing up. Brenda I’ve screwed up my child

Cheryl: I’ve screwed up my child. And you know, that’s it like all these other moms they haven’t Right. And, you know, I should have done what they did or I don’t know, you just go through all these like. And so I feel to have a good support group is just so precious and valuable. And I am really grateful for it. And really, your group really shifted my life and perspective. And I was a mess, I have to tell you like when he was transitioning, and when we found out that he was transitioning to a therapeutic or boarding school, I was a mess.

Cheryl: And that’s when our therapists or his therapists that wilderness said, you know, you should go on Brenda has listened to Brenda’s podcasts. Go on The Stream. And, and I’m so grateful for him for telling me that because I resisted for a little bit. I mean, I knew I was gonna go eventually. But first, I was like, should I not? I don’t know. And then I listened to your podcast. And I was like, Okay, I like her convoys. And I just love everything she’s talking about and your story. And so, and I was like, if she went through what she did, and got through it, and look at her son now then I can do it, too. And so you really gave me that power and strength that I knew I had. But I think it was a booster for me, you know? Brenda Yeah, well, we can forget that it’s in there. Because we get so beat down between what’s going on with our kids. And then we look around at our friends or on social media. And it’s like, well, wait a minute, how come everybody else’s kid is going to prom and going to homecoming and, you know, starting college and going to Africa and you know, feeding starving people would have just like, how is that happening? And my kid is over here doing all these crazy things. So I think we really and we talk about this in the community is we really are stronger together. Because we can lift each other up. When you’re having that down day. You can plug in and then you’re the one who’s helping someone else on the day when you’re up. Brenda And they may come in and they’re like, oh my gosh, this just happened. Or I’m just feeling exhausted. You are the one that can say, sister, I gotcha. I get it. And that’s how we help each other it is that that healing power of community that just feeds itself. And that’s what I love about it. It’s this very organic group. And people will ask like, Well, how did you build this thing? I’m like, I didn’t. You all do. You all, build it, because you are there for each other. You’re reaching out to each other, you’re supporting each other. I’m giving you the platform to do it. But it’s really it’s so beautiful to see you step in and give somebody some thoughts. And it’s not advice, right? It’s like, well, I have no advice for you. But here’s my experience. Because you’ve been there and think about a mom who is listening right now who is considering sending her son or daughter to wilderness therapy. Think about where you were when you were in that situation. And for her to hear you right now. How powerful is that?

Cheryl: Very, like it brings me to tears because I wish I had that when I just went on YouTube before we spent listen to like the 20 something year old girl who went through it and her experience that if I knew of a mom who went through it, and everything she went through would have been a lot more comforting, right? You know, know that, hey, everything’s gonna be okay. It’s gonna be okay. And that’s what I need to hear. And if I could just affect one mom, then that would take like, I’m starting to cry now. A huge difference, you know, and I feel like, you know, especially with the community also, it’s just such a, it’s also a positive place. It’s not just woe is me. And this is also sad. It’s really not it’s like a really positive lifting space where women come together and there’s strength. There’s this bond, there’s this, you know, hey, you got this. Yeah, so that’s what really attracted me and made me stay and want to be a part of it. Brenda Yeah. Well, I think sometimes people think oh, that sounds like the worst thing in the world to hang out with a bunch of other women who I have this thing going on. And it’s, and I can see why people would think that 100% Which is why we do two weeks for free. Like you can just come hang out and see that we actually have a lot of fun. I mean, we do we laugh, we cry together, we laugh together, we do yoga together. Like it’s just, it’s hard to explain, which is why I always encourage people to just come check it out. And, and you’ll meet people like Cheryl who’s amazing. And yeah, we hold each other up. So Well, thank you for being vulnerable and open and so generous to share your story and your current situation. We may have to do follow-up episodes, just because now people are gonna be like, Well, did he come home? Well now what is she doing? Right, it’s kind of a cliffhanger.

Cheryl: Right. And I think that’s important to also, like hear from parents what happened after you know, especially because in your group, like I’m able to ask, okay, for the parents who went through it already, like, Oh, what did you go through what happened? You know, so to have that would be very, yeah, that would be great. Brenda Yeah. All right. Well, I know where to find you. So I will reach out. But thank you so so very much.

Cheryl: Thank you. Brenda Thank you so much for listening. If you’d like to go to the show notes, you can always find those at www.brendazane.com/podcast, each episode is listed there with a full transcript, all of the resources that we mentioned, as well as a place to leave comments if you’d like to do that. You might also want to download a free ebook I wrote called hindsight. Three things I wish I knew when my son was addicted to drugs. It’s full of the information I wish I would have known when my son was struggling with his addiction. You can grab that at www.Brendazane.com/hindsight. Thanks again for listening and I will meet you right back here next week.