The Influence Paradox: How Giving Up Control Can Give You Sway, with Dr. Emily Kline

Brenda Zane: 0:0000;00;01;07 Emily For a parent who’s worried that they’re not doing anything, a way to reframe that is to say I’m investing in the relationship and that’s what I’m working on right now, rather than saying I’m not doing anything about the substance use to say I’m doing something about our terrible relationship that only consists of yelling at 2: 0:2200 in the morning. 00;00;33;15 Brenda You’re listening to Hope Stream. The place for those parenting teens and young adults who are misusing drugs and alcohol in a treatment program or working their way toward recovery. It’s your private space to learn and to gain encouragement and understanding for me, your host, Brenda Zane, and fellow parent to a child who struggled. And I’m so glad you’re here. To learn more about all the resources available to you besides a podcast, please head over to Hope’s dream community, dawg. I want to do a quick check in before we get into today’s guest and topic. It’s really important to me to take a minute just to make sure that you are using or at least thinking about the tools that we talk about here frequently because it can be really easy, I know, to get caught up in the business of life and whatever today’s stressor is or the current crisis and forget there are some specific strategic things that you can do to help move things forward in your family. Most importantly, are you taking care of yourself and making sure that you’re filling yourself up with healthy practices? Are you using the pause button? Remember that is available any time you get emotionally heightened or if you’re just stuck for what to do? And are you being the mindful watcher as often as possible, just observing what your child is doing and saying or not saying or acting out instead of getting sucked into it? 00;02;02;19 Brenda Just these few things can make a really big difference in the tone of your home, and if you’re aware of them and practicing them, it starts to create conditions for change, which we are big fans of because you can’t make somebody change, but you can create a space in a relationship where they feel more able, more allowed and more empowered to make their own decisions about changing. And the conversation you’re going to hear today is all about this idea of not being able to control others, but what you are able to do is be strategic and intentional about how you interact with someone in a way that helps them come to the idea and answers even more questions themselves. I was doing some research lately and one name kept popping up in different places, which is usually a sign that I need to pay attention and learn what that person is all about. This person who kept surfacing was Dr. Emily Klein. She’s the author of a new book that just launched yesterday called The School of Heart Talks How to Have Real Conversations With Your Almost Grown Kids. Hello. Is that not the perfect title for a book? And she is also the creator of the School of Hard Talks Online, which is a free course that you can take. 00;03;25;04 Brenda And I will put links in the show notes to both the book and the online course. Dr. Klein has published dozens of articles appearing in a range of peer reviewed, scholarly journals, textbooks and popular magazines, and she has spoken with audiences all over the world about mental health and interpersonal communication. Dr. Klein completed her bachelor’s degree at Haverford College, her master’s and doctoral degrees at the University of Maryland, and her clinical and postdoctoral training at this little, teeny, tiny school you might have heard of called Harvard Medical School. I think it goes without saying that she is exactly 100% the kind of person that you want to hear from on Hope Stream. We had such a beautiful conversation about families, about change, and what helps people even contemplate change. We talk about the need parents feel often to control outcomes with their kids and why that’s damaging. And you’re even going to get three of Dr. Klein’s go to phrases that she uses to engage young people in hard conversations. It is pure gold. I can’t wait for you to hear this, so I’ll let you eavesdrop in now on an inspiring and eye opening conversation with Dr. Emily Klein. Enjoy and welcome, Dr. Emily Klein to Hope Stream. I am very, very excited to have this conversation with you. We were just chatting like, how is it that we have not become connected before this? 00;04;59;17 Brenda So I’m glad to be doing this today and thankful for your time. So welcome to the podcast. 00;05;04;18 Emily Thank you so much. And yeah, it’s good to talk to someone who I mean, I feel like we live in the same world. 00;05;10;02 Brenda Exactly. Yeah. Working with families and from different angles. Obviously you come at it from more of a clinical angle, from a, you know, you do a ton of research and all that and I’m sort of like feet in the fire with families, you know, on a day to day basis in the moment sometimes. But yeah, it’s a it’s an interesting world, especially today. Some of the things that are going on And what I really love about your body of work is your focus on motivational interviewing, among other things. But I think that’s one tool that I feel like is a little bit of a secret that don’t know so many parents know that they can use it so effectively. So we’ll definitely talk about that. But let’s just get a little let’s get a little Dr. Klein one on one and see just a little bit about you. How in the world did you get interested in psychology and motivational interviewing? And then we’ll jump in from there. 00;06;08;16 Emily I’m originally from Pittsburgh. I went to college for English literature, of all things. I really didn’t know what I wanted to do when I grew up and I was a young college student. I started at 17, so I kind of picked something a little bit random. I realized, Oh wow, if I pick this major, all of my homework is just reading novels, which I really like to do. 00;06;31;06 Brenda Smart. Ed Yeah. 00;06;34;26 Emily I have an altruistic nature, and I really felt an intense calling to kind of be useful in this world, do something good with myself. And the way I got into it actually was was kind of random. I was 20 and I took a break from college, like a little bit of just a mental health break, a bad breakup break. And I was looking to do something with myself, and my friend’s mom hired me as a file clerk at a day program for people who were in recovery. And I loved it. I just started hanging out with all the patients. And my boss there who ran the program said, Go, finish your college degree because I’ll hire you. You’re a great counselor. And so that’s what I did. So she hired me with my English lit degree, and then I worked there for a couple of years. And then she she’s a great mentor. Her name is Jessica Feldman. We’re still friends and this is 20 years ago. So she said, it’s time for you to be on your way. You need to go get like an advanced degree in this. 00;07;43;20 Emily You’ll feel you have a great career ahead of you. And I followed her advice, and that’s how I got into it. 00;07;48;21 Brenda Oh, that’s amazing. What was it about working at that clinic with the patients that you liked? 00;07;54;05 Emily Oh, what a great question. Well, the program was called a clubhouse, and it’s a really lovely model. The idea is that it’s not really a clinical space. You don’t have any doctors or anybody doing therapy in this space. The idea is that it’s kind of like a community center and you have a few staff and the job of the staff is to engage the patients in kind of running a community center. So my job would be, Hey, we have 30 people here today and we got to make everybody lunch. So my job was to go around and try and get people to help me, and then we’d do the dishes. Then I’d say, okay, let’s go do inventory in the back. Okay, Now we got to go to Costco and refresh our supplies. Now we’ve got a deep clean oven. And so the idea was that people need to be needed. We need to have a purpose in order to get going in this life, especially if you’ve been out of work or isolated. And so the idea was to create a very, very low stakes, almost simulation of work. 00;09;01;08 Brenda Right. 00;09;01;27 Emily Where you could practice being needed and try it on and see how it feels. And it was really fun for me. I was so young and it was genuine when I was like, I really don’t know how to deep clean an oven. Do any of you know. 00;09;16;14 Brenda You’re right. 00;09;17;22 Emily So I was kind of good at it from that angle. 00;09;20;24 Brenda That’s awesome. I love that. It’s so interesting to hear the stories, you know, that lead people to where they are, because I often find there is something like that that’s just really pure and really special that brought you into it. Were you using motivational interviewing at that point or where did you first come across this technique? 00;09;42;04 Emily You know, we did a like two hour workshop on it one day at that job, and I thought it was cool, but I didn’t really internalize it. And then I went to graduate school to do my Ph.D. in psychology, and I learned a lot of things there. Obviously, it’s a lot of a lot of classes you take to get that degree. And motivational interviewing was like in the mix. I did learn it from someone who is kind of he was one of the guys who wrote the trans theoretical model, which I know you’re familiar with. You referenced it in other episodes. One of my professors was Carla DiClemente, who kind of came up with a lot of that stuff. 00;10;16;01 Brenda She was your professor? Yeah. Yeah. 00;10;17;17 Emily So I learned motivational interviewing from him, which was a good experience. But again, it wasn’t my thing, right? It wasn’t my number one specialty. I was just kind of filing it all away. And then I got out into the field and started practicing, and it was really the only thing I found that I used every single day. I was like, Well, thank goodness I know this. At least like this is something I can do. And I used it constantly and I realized it was really of all the tools that I had added to the tool kit in graduate school, I thought it was my number one most useful. And then I was doing so much work with families because, I mean, obviously, you know, the families are just so important when you have a young person who is struggling, whether it’s with mental health or addiction or both. And I started really connecting with the families and working with the families and realized if I can teach the families some of these skills, they’ll be so much more empowered at home. And really, they’re the ones, you know, I see this young person for 50 minutes once a week, sometimes every other week. But the mom or the dad, I mean, they’re home with them all the time. 00;11;26;29 Emily So they’re really the ones who are going to have the most impactful interactions and conversations. 00;11;33;00 Brenda Yeah, it’s one of those things that you really can use at the dinner table or, you know, even at 2: 13:3900 in the morning, right, when when things are stressful and a little crazy, that it’s just one of those tools that you can apply, I think across the board, for the most part was motivational interviewing developed for people with substance use, with alcohol use disorder? 00;11;58;06 Emily Yeah, that’s my understanding. So the developers are two psychologists, Bill Miller and Stephen Rolnick, and my understanding is that they developed it in the context of alcohol addiction treatment in the 1980s and they kind of articulated this principle that was kind of an outgrowth of like very sort of person centered non directive psychology. And it was really radical at the time because, you know, I mean, still in our culture we have this idea of an intervention, right, where you kind of get in somebody’s face and you tell them, Hey, you’re ruining your life, you’re hurting other people, you need to change. If you can deliver a really forceful and compelling kind of speech like that, that’s going to get somebody to see the light and want to change their behavior. And Karl Rogers, who is a psychologist, who really created person centered therapy, he wrote, It’s only when I accept myself exactly as I am that I can change. Turning that on its head, this idea of an intervention and saying, no, it’s when people feel accepted, when they feel heard, when they don’t have anything to fight against, that’s when they can explore the possibility that maybe they are ready to try something new. 00;13;12;21 Brenda That’s yeah, that’s a great way to think about it. And for adolescents too, because I feel like in adolescence there’s just this natural pushback, right? There’s this natural will, like, I’m going to do it my way, even if they’re not struggling with anything. It’s just sort of the way that teens are and young adults to some degree. So I think and I’d love to hear your experience in watching how this works, in particular with young people who may not have a fully developed prefrontal cortex, because that’s a lot of the frustration that I think as parents we face, we’re just like, Oh my gosh, they don’t have a working brain yet. How do you see it working with adolescents and maybe compare and contrast that to what you see with adults if it’s different? 00;14;00;06 Emily So I think there’s more similarities and differences really. I mean, I think that we all kind of get defensive when people criticize us or give us advice that we didn’t ask for. I know that I do. You know, even if the person is really well-intentioned, it often feels kind of like critical or condescending, like, Oh, you don’t think I already thought of that or you think I’m done right? You think you can do this better than me, Right? And so I think that we have more in common than different with adolescents. But I do think that they have really, you know, intense autonomy needs that they want to assert. And we and if you want to make any kind of progress with teenagers, you have to respect those because otherwise it’s just a power struggle from A to Z. Older people are they can be more impulsive, they value peer input a lot. That can be a good thing if you can leverage it. Right. So, for instance, like the hope I always have for my patients is that they they meet a girl or they meet a boy in that person doesn’t like the smell of marijuana. Right. And because that’s a peer influence, that’s so much more powerful than anything I’m going to say. 00;15;17;28 Emily But so they really value peer input and they value short term benefits more than we do. And they tend to see the upside of things more than the downside of things. And that is like, I think, really a treasure. I love teenagers. I think they’re cool. You know, they I mean, they’re definitely cool. Like they think that we’re horrible, right? We’re so risk averse. We’re so cautious. We’re so anxious. 00;15;41;25 Brenda Right. 00;15;42;15 Emily They are willing to try new things and take risks. And they’re so loyal to their friends. I mean, they have so many wonderful qualities. And so I think. But is it just a different perspective? 00;15;53;03 Brenda Yeah, Well, I think they’re also probably used to being sort of talked down to or I think a lot of parents we try to control and control and control and control and so they’re used to that. So using motivational interviewing with an adolescent is they’re a little shocked sometimes, like, why isn’t this person telling me what to do? You know, it’s just like such a different approach that they are trying to figure out like what’s going on and then they open up because you’re not trying to control them. So maybe you can. We’ll rewind to where I just got so excited talking about all of this, but we should have you just frame up so that if somebody is listening, they’ve never heard of this or used it, kind of what are the core elements and what is the goal of motivational interviewing? 00;16;47;19 Emily All right. So the basic philosophy is that we simply cannot control other people. And that makes a lot of sense as a therapist, right, Because it doesn’t really matter what you say in the room. The person’s going to go out there and live their life If you don’t want them to drink alcohol or use substances or you want them to take a medicine or, you know, exercise, it really has to come from their own motivation. There’s very little that we can control about other people. And the flipside of that is that people are most receptive to suggestions and advice and trying something new when they’re feeling understood, confident and in control. We all want to control our own destiny and people will be really can be very self-destructive just to prove that they’re in charge. 00;17;38;20 Brenda Right. 00;17;39;11 Emily And so we never want to talk to that part of someone’s psyche. You know, we want to talk to their curious, optimistic, mature, like, hmm, what could I do differently part of some way and not the, you know, screw you you don’t know me back off of my life part of someone and the ideas that we all have, both sides. We’re all ambivalent when it comes to making changes in our lives. So we want to communicate with people in a way that helps them feel not judged, but understood, that helps them feel like that kind of curious, like, what could I do? And we as much as possible want to resist giving advice unless we’re really sure that it’s a good time to do it. So there’s a couple really simple ways to do this. You know, motivational interviewing isn’t super easy and people do train a lot in it, But I like to just emphasize the really basic skills, which actually are they’re not easy easily, but if you practice them, they get a lot easier. And so those skills are like starting a conversation, not with a whole lot of information or giving advice, but from a stance of curiosity and a sort of respect for the other person’s autonomy. 00;18;52;06 Emily So for instance, if I wanted to start a conversation about cannabis use with my teenager, I wouldn’t walk into the room and say, Hey, here’s an article about why this is terrible for you and you better stop doing it, or else I’m taking away the car keys. 00;19;06;26 Brenda Which is probably what, 19 9.9% of us do the first time. 00;19;11;20 Emily Yeah, And it’s it’s very understandable. And if a by the way, if that worked for you, then like, do it again. Congratulations is no shade for me. Like, I’m just a practical person. If that works for you and your family, that’s awesome. But instead walking in and going, Hey, you know, I have noticed a smell of cannabis from your backpack or in the car or whatever. What’s going on in just trying to come at it from a non-judgmental perspective and learn as much as we can before we direct or prescribe. So that’s kind of the first thing, is not trying to control our fix, but instead really rooting ourselves in and curiosity in nonjudgmental and then using really good, nonjudgmental questions and using a lot of reflections to try and get into a non defensive back and forth conversation. So what that would sound like is so you say, okay, I notice that the car smells like weed and your teenager says, No, it was my friend, it wasn’t me. I wouldn’t do anyway. I mean, asking me, you know, has this defensive reaction and. 00;20;26;13 Brenda Course, mom, it’s never me. 00;20;28;14 Emily Yes, yes. I say, Oh, okay, It wasn’t you, it was your friend, whether I believe it or not. Right. I’m just going to reflect what I hear back. And the point of it is just to get the other person talking and just to say, hey, listen, I’m just I just want to hear what you have to say. I mean, let’s take a break from me yelling. Let’s just take a break from it. I’m just going to put the spotlight on you and I’m going to reflect back what you say and I’m going to say, Oh, so, you know, what do your friends think of cannabis or, you know, what is the attitude in your school, in whatever. My my teenager says, I’m just going to commit. It’s going to reflect. I’m just going to reflect. And usually that can get somebody talking. So those are kind of the basic skills is like these open ended questions, reflections. And then I think the other really essential piece is prefacing advice with like labeling it as advice and even asking, Hey, so I appreciate you sharing your your perspective on that with me. 00;21;39;18 Emily I’ve been doing some research on on on marijuana, too. Do you mind if I share what I’ve learned. 00;21;45;18 Brenda From. 00;21;46;21 Emily Asking that permission? And if somebody says no, it probably means there it’s you’re wasting your breath, like it’s not a good time and you can come back to it another day. But usually if you’ve kind of heard somebody out, they’ll say yes. And then that’s when you have your chance to say, Well, I’m really worried about it because, you know, I’m worried about the THC content in these products or I’m worried about, you know, your academics slipping or that you’ve been you know, it seemed like I didn’t really have a problem with it when it was just at parties. But now it seems like it’s an everyday thing. And I really would appreciate, you know, thinking together about if you’re interested in using less or or even framing it as a question, like, what would you think about using less? What’s your motivation to, to use less? Is it none or are you actually curious about that? Have you been trying to use less? Because the idea is that if we come at people who are a little bit motivated with a lot of like lecturing and scolding, then they just get defensive and they’re not even willing to talk with us. And it’s like, Oh, that person actually was motivated. Like they were curious, they were interested, and now we’ve kind of blown that conversation, but you’ll get another chance. 00;23;01;18 Emily That’s what I always tell parents. You’ll get another chance, right? 00;23;04;06 Brenda Right. You’ll probably have another chance to smell weed in the car. Yes. So we always say, if you’re here listening to Hope Stream, I’m guessing you might be glad to know there are other resources that you can take advantage of as you work on getting your family to a better place. We’ve now combined all the information you need into one simple space called Hope Stream Community. It’s where you can learn about our private online communities for moms and dads, our retreats are educational offerings and of course, the podcast host Dream Community is a nonprofit organization that exists solely to help you navigate this challenging season in life and to be connected, educated and taken care of so that you’re better equipped to help your child make positive change in their lives. You are not helpless when your child misuses substances, and we’re here to give you the tools and information you need after the episode, take a look at Hope Stream Community Talk to Find what we offer. Now back to the show. I’m thinking about even myself and a lot of the families that we have in our communities where this has not been the mode of conversation. 00;24;31;07 Brenda Right? So maybe it’s been a year and there’s just been a ton of power struggles and head butting and lecturing and threatening and punishment, you know, taking away the phone or taking away the computer or taking away the car and blah, blah, blah. And now somebody is like, oh, well, okay, maybe I should try this motivational interviewing thing. First question is how do you start to shift your voice, your conversations, your because it could be a very like 180, right? Like, well, yesterday my mom was screaming at me for this. And then today she’s asking me, Well, tell me about it. Is there a right or wrong way to sort of transition to using motivational interviewing? 00;25;19;25 Emily I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way. I think that a lot of parents are worried that it’s going to feel like fake and weird and it ties When you first start doing it, it feels weird to you. It usually doesn’t feel weird to your kid. They’re just like, Oh, this person is being nice to me. When of my colleagues who really helped to develop some of this content with me. Her name is Theresa McIntyre and she’s a family advocate in Boston. I mean, she put it so beautifully. She’s like, well, you know, if if my daughter asked, I would just say, yeah, I care about you and I’m trying something new and I’m not very good at it. Yeah, right. 00;26;00;04 Brenda Right. 00;26;00;21 Emily I want I don’t want to fight with you. And it’s like that just that little bit of sort of vulnerability I find so endearing and I think is very disarming to even a teenager, hopefully because believe it or not, they have noticed that you’re not great at communicating if you’ve been yelling at each other for a year. 00;26;19;03 Brenda There is no mistake that this is not working. Yeah, and I say the same thing too. I’m like, Well, heck, but give it a try. I mean it it can’t hurt, right? If what you’ve been doing hasn’t been working. And yeah, you might get a weird glance. And I think that’s also a really good role modeling to say, Hey, I’m willing to try something new. I’m willing to to set down my yelling and screaming. Maybe you could think about setting down something as well. So I think it can start to pave the road for a little bit better conversation. What do you do, though, if your kid says, I am never going to stop smoking weed, like, okay, mom, I’m going to not take those pills anymore because I know they’re sitting on you, You don’t want me to die and blah, blah, blah. But I’m never going to stop smoking weed because I get it at a dispensary. It’s total fine. I have a card. Is there is there a response or do we just have to say, okay, and let’s say this is a 18 year old, just because this is a typical situation that our families get into with an 18 year old who gets a medical marijuana card and is like, back off, I’m doing this for the rest of my life. It works for me. Yeah. 00;27;32;19 Emily So, you know, this is a good example where I can come up with a reflection that I would use in that moment. And again, this isn’t about controlling the outcome. Like, I can’t guarantee that this is going to turn around the situation immediately or ever. But what I would say to that 18 year old, if they said that to me, is So you feel really confident in your decision and you don’t see it ever causing any problems for you. That’s a reflection. And I would say a lot of the time that person would say, Yeah, and that’s okay. That means that’s not. I haven’t done any damage. I didn’t change their mind, but I showed them that I can hear and respect their perspective. And so maybe they’ll be more willing to talk again with me in the future. So that’s not a bad thing. 00;28;17;25 Brenda Yeah. 00;28;18;20 Emily I feel like when somebody says something like that, what you just said, I’m never going to stop, stop bugging me about it. They are picking it’s like it’s a game of tug of war, right? And they’re picking up the rope in their yanking. And what I did when I reflected was I dropped my rope, didn’t yank back. I just dropped it. I said, okay, I hear you. Sometimes the conversation goes in a more interesting direction from there. Not always, but sometimes when there’s nothing to kind of fight against, people will be more vulnerable and more interested in exploring. 00;28;57;00 Brenda Right? Like when you said that, I was thinking what I might say. Well, I don’t know if it’s never going to be a problem, but it’s not a problem right now. 00;29;04;11 Emily Yeah. And then I would say, so now I’m like fully in the role play because it’s is what I do with parents. I just Right, right. I would say, okay, so what, what for you would be the warning signs to look out for. 00;29;15;27 Brenda Oh, that’s a good one. 00;29;18;02 Emily Because now I have you thinking about it, you know. 00;29;22;08 Brenda Right. And you know what’s so interesting about the way even the tone of your voice, the way you’re saying this is not it’s not that snarky kind of parent like, oh, what would you look out for? Right? Like, we can get in. I think you can sometimes say the same words with a different tone of voice. And it completely ruins the whole intent behind what you’re saying. Yeah. Because the way you’re saying it and I think maybe it’s easier to if you’re not like the parent because you’re not so emotionally invested in this. But maybe we can try. If you are the parent, just try putting on your therapist hat only from like an emotional distance here. Or like you’re the auntie or example next door neighbor or something like that. 00;30;10;21 Emily Right? Like you don’t have to be the therapist, but like, yeah, pretend this is your niece or nephew, you know, like someone who you love, but you don’t feel so responsible for the outcome. When I work with parents, I often ask them, you know, when you were growing up, was there someone in your life who you really felt safe going to with a dilemma? And, you know, a lot of people did have that in one of their own parents, but a lot of people say exactly what we’re saying, which is, yeah, it was my neighbor, it was my grandma, my aunt, because mom and dad or just too close to the problem, they couldn’t listen without getting all activated. 00;30;54;15 Brenda Yeah. And it’s hard to go into these conversations without wanting to control the outcome. Like you said, you’re not trying to control the outcome. I think what we’re trying to do is draw out information. And I think as parents, we often go into the conversation with a very clear goal that we are going to change your mind and you’re going to see the light of day and you’re going to go, Oh, you know what? You’re right. I do need to go to treatment. And again, I don’t know that that’s ever happened. I mean, I’m sure it has somewhere, but for the most part that doesn’t happen. And so we have to find ways to resist that urge to get to a specific outcome. 00;31;37;22 Emily Yes. And but what’s amazing about it is that it’s paradoxical, right? It’s when we stop trying to control the outcome that, you know, kids actually start confiding in us and then you have influence. The point is not to control the outcome, but it also is like, I wouldn’t have written a book about it if I really thought parents couldn’t do anything. 00;32;04;14 Brenda Right. Exactly. 00;32;06;03 Emily I actually think that if you’re if you succeed at this, then you do have more influence. But it’s not through like the yelling and threatening and trying to close the deal right this second right now. Go to treatment. 00;32;18;08 Brenda Yeah, yeah. It’s a it’s a much more strategic means to the end that doesn’t involve all of the drama and the yelling and the screaming and that also what I hear, too, from parents is they feel sometimes like, well, I’m making this like there is no yelling or anything going on anymore. So is that right? Like my kids doing a lot of drugs. Shouldn’t we be like, shouldn’t there be a lot of emotion? Shouldn’t there be a lot of, like, hard conversations? Because I think that’s what we’ve seen, right? You see shows like Intervention or you see these examples of like really confrontational situations, and then the person says, okay, I’ll go to treatment. And so maybe we’re hanging our hope on that, but it can feel a little of what I’ve heard from people is they say, well, it feels kind of passive. And I would ask like, what do you think about that? 00;33;18;12 Emily Well, first of all, I’m not you know, I practice what I preach. So I’m not I don’t do a sales pitch. You know, it’s just something to try if you feel like it. Yeah. And at the same time, people often say, well, you just have to put your foot down, right? I hear that expression all the time, right? And I always ask, So what does that look like in your house? What does that mean for your family? And, you know, it might mean a lot of yelling. It might mean threatening to kick people out of the house. It might mean taking away phones or keys or computers, like you said. You know, and then the obvious question is like, how’s that going? And if it’s going good, then like, great, do that. And if it’s not going good, try something new. I do think there is parents who are to avoid it. I mean, I think there’s people who kind of don’t talk about it at all. And I run a parent group that meets on Tuesday nights. And one of the things I really love about having a group is that, you know, you get the parents who are like really comfortable with confrontation and then the parents who like, are like, okay, so I have to talk to my kid about this thing and I have no idea how to bring it up. 00;34;32;21 Emily And I’ve never started a conversation like this. And you get them to kind of talk to each other right. So there’s parents who do need a little take a little a little more courage, I guess, to, like, get in there and have a difficult conversation. And then there’s people who maybe feel like they’re so used to yelling that the but it’s not doing anything and it doesn’t feel good. 00;34;56;20 Brenda Right. 00;34;57;06 Emily And for them taking being a little more strategic, I like that word that you used instead of passive. I would also say, like for the parent who’s worried that they’re not doing anything, a way to reframe that as to say, I’m investing in the relationship, you know, and that’s what I’m working on right now, rather than saying I’m not doing anything about the substance use to say I’m doing something about our terrible relationship that only consists of yelling at 2:00 in the morning, You know, what I’m doing about that is not yelling at 2:00 in the morning and instead inviting and trying to interest my my kid in other types of interactions, like getting some pizza or going for a walk or playing video games together. And that is not and I think that’s really, really important. 00;35;43;11 Brenda That is a really, really good insight because it exactly what you’re doing. You might say, hey, for the next couple of weeks, if you’re co-parenting with somebody, let’s drop the topic of weed and let’s make a two week investment in the relationship so that we can get closer to being able to have the conversation about the weed and what I’m wondering is if there are any like do you have any go to phrases that you find to be kind of door openers with, especially with adolescents or with young adults? If if a parent is listening and they’re stuck and they’re like, well, first of all, we’re going to make sure they get your book and they’re going to do the online school of hard talks e course because it’s great. But let’s say they haven’t done that yet. Are there any phrases that you have found that are pretty good at sort of getting that door to creak open a bit with a young person to get them talking? 00;36;42;26 Emily Oh, this is a great question. I have some really good friends that are coming to mind. So the first is to start a conversation with the words I noticed. You know, it’s so like sort of nonchalant, like I noticed and you make a really simple observation. It’s totally concrete. Like, I noticed you haven’t taken a shower in a while. I noticed, you know, car smells like I noticed. I noticed you came home pretty late last night because it’s kind of gentle, and then you stop talking, you know, I just see what they say. 00;37;16;07 Brenda That’s the hard part. 00;37;18;07 Emily That’s the hard part. Yet another question that I love is when you are trying to get your kid to do something and they’re not doing it like they’re not going to their therapy appointment or they’re not going to class, whatever the question, what’s getting in the way? Because it’s very gentle. Again, it’s nonjudgmental and it’s a way to try and align with your kid about, you know, okay, obviously something’s getting in the way. What is that? And to start talking about that, rather than getting into a back and forth about whether or not the thing is happening right, getting into lies and denials and whatever, it’s like I noticed this, which means there. So what’s getting in the way? So that is a I always love to ask. And then another great question is what could you do? You know, if it’s like, okay, I want you to go to therapy and you’re saying that’s never going to happen. So it’s like, okay, well, what could you do? I’m going to put it back on you. Now. My job isn’t to generate all the ideas. Mm. You take a turn and again, not in a sarcastic way, but just in a genuine way. 00;38;29;20 Emily Like I’m out of ideas. What what could. What do you think you could do to make the situation better? So those are three suggestions. 00;38;36;20 Brenda I love those, those are great. And we should make like a little like a business card size thing that people can carry around in there or. Maybe stick it on your phone. 00;38;46;06 Emily When I teach it to like the medical students and the residents at Boston University where I teach, they like I try to give them a little treat because they’re learning so much. So let’s take a picture of this and you can use it next time. 00;39;00;25 Brenda Yes, well, we need it because a lot of times you’re, you know, emotionally heightened. You’re not in a nice calm like sometimes. Listen to the podcast. Right now, they’re probably out walking, you know, like life might be pretty calm, but it’s usually one of these times where you get emotionally kind of like up and you can always remember these tools. So those are super great. So your book is out and just talk a little bit about what do you want people to take away from that? Like, what’s your what’s your hope and your dream for people that read it and close it up and go, Oh. 00;39;40;02 Emily I just hope that people find a little relief in it. I mean, it’s called the School of Hard Talks, How to have real conversations with your almost grown kids. And it describes these skills and it also describes kind of this surrounding philosophy, which is that our impact is often like around the margins, you know, And so it’s so I always start there with parents like this, You know, this isn’t your fault, right? But you can make a difference. And that’s kind of the the essential philosophy that our kids are not reflections of us. They’re not ours to control. If they struggle. It’s not because we did something wrong as parents, but by kind of being open and available for hard talks and investing in the relationship that we can have much more influence than we can by, you know, yelling and screaming and taking things away. So I hope that’s what people get out of it. And it’s also kind of I hope to find an easy read. A lot of the book is kind of written like like a movie script, Like it’s just kind of watching people interact. Like if mom says this, then the kid says this and the mom says this and the kid says this, but if the mom says this, then the kid says this, then the mom says this, then they love it. 00;40;59;18 Brenda Love that. Like you said, there’s a huge amount of science and there’s a lot behind motivational interviewing. But when you’re working on using it yourself, there are there are ways that can like, if you can read through a script like that and go, oh, in even just the questions that you outline, it’s like, Oh, I think I could do that, right? Like, I think I could actually do that just as a layperson. So that’s amazing. So yes, we’ll put a link in the show notes. If you’re listening to the School of Hard Talks, any myths or misperception shows either about young people, about motivational interviewing or like the the thing that you hear all the time, that just frustrates you to death, that you want to clear up once and for all for people who are listening. 00;41;45;00 Emily Oh, so many. I mean, I think the biggest one is that in this you say every episode, so I’m not contributing anything new. But the parents who come to my group and the parents I work with are a lot of them are just the nicest people who have been there every step of the way for their kids. So this idea that mental health problems, that addiction is a reflection on parents and it means that parents screwed up, I think it does so much damage in our culture and it really holds us back from working with families and with young people in the way that is most likely to be successful. 00;42;21;10 Brenda Well, all of your patients are very lucky to have you. We are super lucky that you wrote this book. So we’ll get again. If you’re listening, there will be a link in the show notes and you can get that. And also there’s an online course. I believe it is free, right? 00;42;34;24 Emily Totally free. Yeah. 00;42;36;13 Brenda Yeah. So that’s incredible. And we’ll put a link to that as well. Thank you. 00;42;41;00 Emily Yeah, Thanks for finding me and introducing yourself. This is great. 00;42;46;10 Brenda Okay, that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda Zane Gqom forward slash podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there, so that’s very helpful. You might also want to download a free e-book I wrote. It’s called Hindsight Three Things I wish I knew when my son was misusing drugs. It it’ll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from Brenda’s income for slash hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself. And I will meet you right back here next week.