4 Things You’re Probably Googling if Your Child Struggles With Substances, with Cathy Cioth

Cathy Cioth
[00:00:00] Hello. Hello, Cathy. Welcome back. Hi, Brenda. Oh my gosh. It’s so good to see you. I know we see each other, but it’s always so good to see you when we record a podcast together. And it is. And we got to actually see each other in person in Nashville maybe a month ago. Oh my gosh. I think it was. That was fun. It was. It was a month ago. It was almost a month ago. That was really fun. Love Nashville. Yes. Shout out to all of our Nashville folks. That is such a cool. Such a cool place. I had never been, never, never seen the nightlife, although we didn’t spend a lot of time in the nightlife. We didn’t see any, what are you talking about? We didn’t see any nightlife when we were there. Well, we, we drove around. We drove around. We just didn’t participate. But anyway, that was really, really fun. We got to go with Dina Cannizzaro, so that was fun and, and do some Hope Stream things and we saw some members. Yes. Yeah, we always do. Whenever we’re traveling, we try and go out and it’s just 
[00:01:00] the best when you get to sit and have a meal with a member. Yeah or whatever, just ’cause it’s like, I don’t know. This world is so, it seems like there’s so much fake, unknown. Like, are these real people? So when you get to go to brunch with somebody, it’s like, oh, you’re for real. It’s really cool. You’re for real and you’re right, everything is online these days and even with you and I, right? We don’t live in the same city, the same state. So it’s so nice and special when we get together and you know, yeah, the in-person connection is so special and you do feel like. Even though we see all of these moms online when we are in person, when we go get to visit their state, it is, it’s truly like we’ve known them forever. It’s such a great feeling and I just love that. That’s one of my favorite parts of this job. Love it. Yeah. There’s a bond that you can’t really explain, but when you’re with somebody and you know, they know. 
[00:02:00] All the things that, you know, it’s like, I get it. Oh, I can’t remember where, who was I talking to? I was talking to another like battle tested mom recently in person and she said something about, she was like, oh my gosh, I got the call from the treatment center. ’cause my son went and drank a bottle of hand sanitizer. I didn’t even blink. I was like, oh yeah, that’s very common. And she’s like, what? It’s like, that’s part that goes along right and then another one that I thought was kind of interesting, I don’t know why we’re going, this is definitely a tangent from the episode, but it’s kind of related to what we’re gonna be talking about though. It is related. It is. Think about it, right? Because yes, I could see somebody googling this. So this mom in our community found this is the best. She finds this bottle in her son’s bathroom under the sink, kind of hidden behind some towels. It’s a bottle with urine in 
[00:03:00] it and it, he had wrapped hand warmers around, oh my gosh, you cannot make this stuff up. You can’t make this, cannot it up. I’m glad I never found that. I’m too, I think that would’ve really grossed me out, although my son did tell me. Son did tell me that, oh, for a while he was keeping urine in his shampoo bottle. Oh. Which I am really glad I never went and had to borrow his shampoo. That would’ve been a surprise. Wow. So, wow. Yeah and you know, Cathy and I can laugh at this stuff now because Yeah. We are nine, you know, nine and 10 years past this. I know that this is not funny for those of you who are in it. However, I think there is a certain amount of appreciation that we have to have for, first of all, our kids’ ingenuity. I mean, come 
[00:04:00] on. Oh, they’re ready hand warmers on your urine bottle. Like, that’s amazingly brilliant. So truly, I think for the parents who are, you know, you’re experiencing something like that, and of course you’re gonna be like furious and frustrated, and I would just, I think we would encourage you to also put another lens on that and say when this kind of ingenuity, ingenuity, ingenuity, I don’t know what the word is. Ingenuity. I’m not even gonna try to correct you there. I know. Okay. I’m not sure either. When this level of creativity there you go, can be applied to a healthy activity. They will change the world. So yeah, that’s all we’ll say about that, but Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It’s so true. I used to say all the time that our daughter would make an incredible lawyer because she was able to argue herself out. She would come up with these brilliant arguments 
[00:05:00] whenever we had a contract. We know back before treatment and everything, we’d make these contracts and that girl was truly she is brilliant and so now we get to enjoy the brilliance. Not related to substances, but it is really true. So, yes, if anything, if you can find the positive. ’cause I know we talk about finding the positives in your kid. Just yeah know that that really is a superpower for them. You know, even though they might not be using it in the way that you want them using it. It is truly, they’re really brilliant and they’re great and you know, let’s just get ’em on the other side of the substances and everything else so that you can see them shine in that great way. Yeah. So true. So true. Well, what we actually wanted to talk about today Yeah was the kind of the things that we know parents are Googling at two o’clock in the morning, and I guess we should now say Chat GP T-ing is that a verb? Sure. Uh.
[00:06:00] Is that a verb? Because, well, it’s, it’s Chat GP T-ing is the verb. Right? What are they? Right, what are they? Because there’s so many questions. Yeah. Now, if you’re a member in the stream community, you are asking these questions out in the open in our community because everybody is asking these questions. You know, you don’t have to worry about anyone ever finding out. However, if you’re not there yet. Then these are things that you might be questioning about, wondering about, and they’re really, some of them can be difficult questions to ask, even if you have a therapist, right? You might have an awesome therapist, but they don’t know anything about teenagers wrapping their extra urine clean urine bottle with hand warmers like that, that takes a pretty, you know, specific group of people to ask. So that is what we thought we would talk about 
[00:07:00] today and the first one that we thought we would tap into is, do young people have to go to treatment to find recovery? Gosh, what do you think? That is such a great one because you know, I’ll be honest, when we were in the thick of it, and as you know, that lasted quite a while, so just even just only a few years ago, I also thought. Is this ever gonna end? Do they need solid treatment to get, you know, on the other side of this, and I’m always surprised to learn how the percentage of folks that actually go to treatment is so low compared to you can do this without treatment, you know? And it’s kind of surprising, right? I mean, and when we say treatment, we’re talking formal treatment, you know, we’re talking. Right, right, right. I mean, I think it’s good to 
[00:08:00] clarify what that is. Yeah. I am always shocked about this, especially when I have people on the podcast and I remember Joe Collette, I will put the link to her episode in the show notes. She was a young lady who I think around 17, she started using and she became an IV heroin user. She was homeless. I mean, every bad thing you could imagine happened to this young lady and then at one point she decided, I can’t live like this anymore. This is why we talk about and I’m not gonna go on too much of a tangent, I promise, but this is why we talk about rock bottom. Yeah. It looks like a lot of different things and it’s really the gift of desperation. Her gift of desperation was just literally like, she was in a relationship with a very abusive person, and she woke up one day and she’s like, that’s it, I’m done. I cannot live like this. I’m not gonna do this to myself. And she 
[00:09:00] drove from one side of the country. She was in Vancouver, bc. She drove all the way back to Toronto in withdrawals from, she was using everything, anything she could get her hands on, and it had been years, so she was very unhealthy. Never went to treatment. She just stopped using that day. Went through withdrawals eventually, like, so she was, what we call sort of white knuckling it for about five years. Wow. Never relapsed. Wow. And then she found AA and she was like, oh, there’s other people who are trying to do this too and so now she is amazing. You will love this episode if you haven’t listened to it. She’s incredible. So we’ll link to that. But yeah, when I hear that, it reminds me because I think we can get really laser focused on formal treatment. Yeah. And ideally, yes, right, because we know there’s mental health stuff going on. We know that there’s potentially trauma that needs to be dealt with 
[00:10:00] PTSD, all of that. However, that does not mean that they have to go into formal treatment. No, and I think, you know, you bring up a good point. I mean, there’s so many ways to get better, right? And so, you know, yeah. Does it involve, thousands of dollars, and a big thing of an intervention or whatever This all looks like as moms, right? We imagine in our minds this scenario, I know I did quite a bit. We’re gonna have this intervention and then we’re going to get transportation and we’re gonna do all of this thing. It is gonna be a thing and now the beauty of this recovery world right now is so great because there are so many different options and yeah, you’re right. I’ve heard of a lot of folks that they’re sitting there, that needle is in their arm and next thing they know, I mean, that I have beautiful story of someone that we know that, the dad basically said, are you done yet? And then this guy went into basically went into the rooms 
[00:11:00] and you think, wow, you know, no formal detox, none of that and it can be really great and that could be the light for someone, right? Whatever that is. It could be. Yeah and I know that, that’s really hard to hear as a parent because yes, you really want to wrap them in as much support as you can. I think the point of this is to say it is not mandatory. There are so many ways. I mean, even if you just listen to all the recovery stories on this podcast, you’re going to hear so many different ways that people have found recovery between like yoga and there was a guy I had on who started a t-shirt company. Like he found a lot of purpose in having his own business. So yeah, there’s a lot of ways, and I think the statistic is, I’m gonna put a link to, the Recovery Research Institute. I think it’s a collaboration with Harvard and someone else, but basically they give a lot of data on recovery 
[00:12:00] and what helps recovery and all of that and right. They have stated that about 60% of people who have resolved a major significant substance use disorder did so without any formal treatment. Now, that doesn’t mean that those were adolescents. I didn’t have the data broken down by age but that kind of gives you a rough idea of like, right, okay, people do this because they get to a point where they just say, I am done. And that can be that moment of clarity, that gift of desperation, of like, holy cow, I don’t wanna do this anymore. Right? Right and I think as parents, and if you’re sitting there thinking, I feel completely helpless if this is all the case and I just have to sit back, it’s just important to know that your job right now and we will talk about the self-care aspect of it later, but really is just to maintain connection with your kiddo and to let them know that you’re there for them, 
[00:13:00] however that looks in support, right? And so you are that person for them, right? So, you know, and just kind of keep that connection open as well as you can. So, yeah. Yep and we talk about the statistic all the time that 90, I think it’s 94 or 95% of kids, what I call kids age 12 to 25. Who have a diagnosed substance use disorder are treatment resistant, and that means that they don’t believe that they need help and they refuse to accept help. And so this is that rubbing point, right, of like, yeah. Oh my gosh. It’s so obvious that they need help. They are like medically, they meet the criteria for needing help and they won’t get it, which is why having at this intervention of CRAFT and the invitation to change that you can use at home is so important because mm-hmm. If they’re refusing to get help, you’ve got to do something 
[00:14:00] at home or maybe they don’t even live with you and we’re gonna talk about that as well. Yeah. So there are ways that you can build that connection that you were just talking about. So,  yeah. Love that.  I guess it’s like good news, bad news. Right. It’s good news that maybe you’re at the tail end of this. You know, if you, maybe you’ve been watching this for years, maybe the exhaustion will hit sooner than later for your kid. So let’s hope that’s the case, but Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s hard. It’s very true. Hard. It’s hard and we understand. We understand. Yeah. And I think there is a general kind of belief by parents that I have to get my kid into treatment. Yeah, and just know that yes, that would be ideal and if they don’t get into treatment, there are definitely other ways that they can find recovery. So, okay the next thing that we, I don’t know exactly what the 
[00:15:00] Google search would be for this one, but I imagine it’s something like, my kid has been sober for three months and they still don’t have a job. You know? Yeah. Or they’re still not re-enrolled in school or it’s been six months and my daughter, who quit drinking six months ago is still a wreck and yeah, so I don’t know what that full Google search is, but basically it’s like, what is going on? They’re sober, like I thought that was gonna fix everything. Right. There is a name for this. There is a name for this and it’s called PAWS and gosh, I didn’t know what this was way back. I didn’t either. I had no idea, right, right. Post-acute withdrawal symptom syndrome and it is really true. I’ll be honest, I didn’t really see this in the beginning of our journey here, 
[00:16:00] but I know my daughter reported it to me, she’s like, oh mom, I’m really dealing with some bad PAWS you know? And I remember thinking like, what the heck is that? You know, what is she talking about? What is she talking about? But yeah, it’s a thing. It’s a thing. It’s a lot of anxiety. What is this? I mean, let’s tell everyone what this is, you know? Yeah, I think it breaks down into a lot of physical symptoms for them. Mm-hmm. And a lot of behavioral symptoms that look a lot like using behavior. Yeah. So it is extremely confusing because we have this misperception that once we get the drugs out of their system that things are just gonna go back to normal. Right. And that is so not true and you know, I’ve read a lot on PAWS, PAWS is the acronym, not P-A-U-S-E. ’cause we also talk about the pause button, different pause. It does look a, it can look a 
[00:17:00] lot like using behavior and so it’s confusing for parents ’cause it’s like, okay, they’re testing negative, right? Let’s just make a scenario like, yeah, yeah, kid did go to treatment, came home, they’re doing drug testing. Drug tests are negative, but there’s a big lack of motivation, right? No, like, can’t get together to apply for a job. Still very irritable, not able, like brain fog can’t focus. Yeah. Like all these things that look a lot like, are they using again and frustrating for the parents because you’re like, dude, what is wrong with you? Right? Like, and so seriously, it can be six months, it can be a year, and it’s so important to understand because first of all, it can throw a parent right into that like fear, everything comes from a place of fear, which makes a lot of sense, but 
[00:18:00] also it’s important and I’m so glad to hear that your daughter knew what this was because if they don’t know what it is, it can be a reason why they relapse, because they’re like having so much anxiety and you know, they really are trying to stay sober, but there’s all of these symptoms because when you think about what these chemicals do in their body mm-hmm, just because they are no longer putting that chemical in their body. Yeah doesn’t mean that like, boom, it all just goes back to normal. So there’s this delayed reaction and it’s so, so important to understand and like you, I had never heard of this. I mean, we had a little bit of a weird situation too because my son never, you know, like was sober long enough I think to even have PAWS until his last overdose and then Right he had been through a heart attack and a stroke and like all, I don’t, I think that just, that was a whole different 
[00:19:00] situation. Yeah. But I had never heard of it and when we teach this in our craft classes each week, we don’t teach this each week, but when we cover this, parents are always stunned. They’re like, what? Yeah, I didn’t know this.  Yeah. Yeah, it’s so helpful to really know, because one thing I often say is early recovery can be really tough for families, right? And this is part of it, right? PAWS is part of it and when I say early recovery, I’m not talking about month one to month five. I mean, this could go on for a year and there’s so much going on and PAWS really is a reflection of it, body that is actively trying to heal. And so, like you mentioned, right, these chemicals, these substances are, they’re not easy on the body. They’re especially tough on the brain and when our brain is trying to heal and there’s a lot that goes on, my kids struggled with a lot of, 
[00:20:00] concussions because they played sports and my son was in a car accident and that was a damaged brain too. So, just take all this into consideration. I know it’s terrible to feel like you’re walking on eggshells around your kiddo, when they are sober and you’re thinking that it’s gonna be better, but if you can kind of name what this is and maybe your child doesn’t even know if they don’t know. It’s bring this up with them, and it just takes time but there are things you can do to help your brain heal faster too. Yeah. Yeah. I think knowing about it is the most helpful. Yeah and then also, if you are seeing your young person in early recovery mm-hmm who is having sleep problems. I mean, think about it, if they’ve been using THC to fall asleep for the last five years Yes. And now they don’t have that. That’s hard. That’s gonna be a whole change to their 
[00:21:00] system, like you said, head trauma. Yeah. ’cause a lot of times our kids are in accidents or they get beat up or whatever is going on. If they have low motivation, if they have anxiety, they are now. Yeah, we have stripped off the bandaid, right? Yeah. So if they’ve been through treatment, if they’re sober, that bandaid that they used to have to help with their anxiety, depression, sleep, all of that, those are now raw and exposed nerve endings that they are having to navigate sober, and hopefully they have some support for that hopefully they’re getting some counseling and maybe they’re on some medications for mood disorders or whatever, but it is really hard. Yeah. So it’s super important to be aware of and that brain healing and the body healing takes a lot and the other thing that I think is vitally important for people to understand about PAWS is guess who else gets PAWS?
[00:22:00] Parents, because if you look at what we go through when our kids are in early recovery, we also are probably having a hard time sleeping. We also have anxiety. We also are potentially depressed and not knowing what’s going on, like all of the same things that our kids are going through. We are often going through some version of that, right? Maybe not because we don’t have substances in our body anymore, but because we are so attached to what they’re going through. So think about what you’re experiencing and there’s a good chance that your kiddos experiencing in the same thing. Yeah. And I think it can be so freeing to them to hear, maybe you bring this up and say, Hey, I just learned about this thing, are you feeling any of this? And did you know that this could happen? This could go on for a year or two and not to confuse it with using behavior and 
[00:23:00] to really let them know like, Hey, this is a thing, and get as much support for it as they can, physically like going to the doctor. Yeah. I mean, how many of our kids are regularly going to the doctor and the dentist while they’re in active addiction? Yeah. Zero. No, no, zero. Unless they’re getting teeth replaced or something because of something that happened, you know? Yes. I mean, yes. Maybe that just happened in our lives. I don’t know. I have experienced that back, maybe they had to get teeth replaced. Maybe they have to get their nose fixed because there’s too much cocaine going through there. Yeah, yeah and those are real things, but I’m just saying like, while they’re in active addiction, they’re typically not taking good care of themselves. And so there is a lot of, if you only isolated nutrition. That alone, mm-hmm.  In the aftermath of addiction could take years to get the gut healed. You know? ’cause they’re usually not eating right. If they’re eating, they’re not eating healthy food. 
[00:24:00] So maybe you’ve got the impact of alcohol and all these different substances on the gut. Holy cow, that’s not gonna correct in a month or a few weeks. No. No, and I’ll tell you this too, I think, asking your child if they want extra medical support when they’re going through something like this, right and I think that in our own family’s experience, I know our kids we’re very, very willing and excited to go see a regular doctor and by the way, do a little homework so you get someone who really has a good bedside manner when it comes to addiction and SUD because truly that matters to your kid. You obviously don’t want them to feel ashamed when they’re there, but I know when you get the right medical doctor, dentist and everything, it helps them on their healing path and really helps with the symptoms of pause and everything else. If you can get them extra support there, like you said earlier. Yeah. And especially if that support 
[00:25:00] looks like, you know, Hey, let’s work on your gut health. Mm-hmm. Let’s work on your sleep, because those are not like, oh, now you need to go to therapy and have all this talk therapy to talk about. Right, because they’re usually, they’re therapy out at some point. Totally. But if you can say, Hey, how’s your stomach feeling? How is your sleep doing? Right and let’s, right improve those because as those improve, everything improves. That’s right. So it’s that kind of incremental healing that goes on. So anyway, we know that this is a thing because we work with hundreds of parents, and we hear this all the time. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been on a call, we have a special call in our community and a special group for parents who are supporting a child in early recovery. And I will often hear, well, my kid’s been home from treatment for two weeks and they still don’t have a job and I’m like, that makes total sense. They don’t have a job. Yeah and sometimes we recommend things like get 
[00:26:00] do some volunteering or do something that, we’ll meet them where they are from a social standpoint. You know, maybe there’s like an online job that they can do where they don’t have to go out and be social with people. ’cause that can be really hard. Oh yeah. So, yeah. So don’t panic if things are not, you know, that’s right. All rainbows and unicorns. Two weeks after a kid’s sober, you’re on the right path. That’s right. Basically. That’s right. Yes. Okay. So I don’t, let’s see. What would you say the Google term would be for this next one that we’re gonna talk about? What would you Google Cathy? Oh boy. I gotta say. I’ll tell you right now that the word self-care would not be in my Google search. Ew. It would be all about I that, that I don’t even know what it would be, because literally the fingers would be 
[00:27:00] pointing out everywhere, but towards me, it would probably include the words, exhaustion, barely able to move. I love what you say barely functioning, ’cause that’s truly what it feels like. Mm-hmm. I’ll never, ever forget when I was going through it, I would take my daughter to a practice and I would drive my car to some quiet neighborhood, and I would sleep for two hours. Like literally, I was so exhausted. My nutrition habits were terrible. I think the best thing I did was try to walk every morning and even at that, I wasn’t the best at it but What would you say? Similar? Well, yeah I also had never really heard about self-care. Yeah. I think I probably was Googling, I had so many physical symptoms from weight loss. Like I literally could not 
[00:28:00] eat, I couldn’t walk around the block. I had this sharp shooting pains on the insides of my legs, like from my hips all the way down to my ankles. Yeah. So I was experiencing a lot of that. So I was googling a lot of physical symptoms. Okay. Obviously not sleeping headaches. All those things. And so if that sounds familiar, and you’re wondering why you’re like catching a cold all the time and it takes a really long time to get rid of it. If you’re wondering, why have I gained 40 pounds in the last three months while my child’s been struggling, or why have I lost 40 pounds? Or all of those things I think are the things that are surrounding this lack of taking care of ourselves, and we get it, it seems counterintuitive. I need to solve this crisis before I start taking care of myself. However, as we have said a couple of times on this podcast, 
[00:29:00] your health and wellness are a critical part of your child’s path to recovery. You know, when you think about what happens when the day comes. When they say, mom, you know what I do need some help. Yeah. You know, I would be willing to see a therapist and when you are not available because you are too sick or too frazzled or whatever you are, that’s not where we want you to be. We want you to be at the ready. Healthy. You’ve had breakfast, you’ve had water, you’ve walked around the block with Cathy. All the things so that when, that, all the things so that when that moment comes, you can step in grounded, not freaking out with a plan and that’s a different podcast. The one about the invitation to treatment. Yeah. That’s where you need to be and so it’s a little bit of shoring up 
[00:30:00] your resources before you need them. I mean, clearly you need your health right now, but if you’re having a hard time thinking about taking care of yourself, think about it as I am protecting the most valuable asset in my child’s life. I talked about this not long ago on a podcast and I’m shoring up these resources before my kid needs them from me right. That’s how I think about it at least. Yeah, no, it’s absolutely true and I think it’s really easy to kind of get down on yourself ’cause you think, oh my gosh and we often tell our moms all the time, start so small. And by the way, just like we tell our kids, we recognize the positive things they’re doing, recognize that in your own life too. You know, did you get up and you stood outside for a while and just kind of got to appreciate nature for a little bit? I mean, you may think that’s really not a lot, but it’s these tiny little 
[00:31:00] steps that create these habits, so that you can, get stronger and do this in a more consistent way and I will say I have personal experience with really working on that part of myself because when we had a crisis a few years ago, I was so happy to see that I rebounded so much better and it’s because I did take the time to take care of myself and I love what you said is that you’re really taking care of this person that’s going to be the go-to person right and I love the way you frame that, Brenda. That’s just so true. If you knew that, think of your own parents and you’re the person that’s gonna take care of them or whatever it is, you know? Yeah. Your child is gonna look up to you hopefully that one day and you are gonna be ready to go. And so if that’s what’s gonna keep you motivating, you know, dedicate that walk to your child or you know, dedicate, I always loved doing that. I used to do that 
[00:32:00] often when I was on my self-care journey in the beginning and I remember I would go to orange Theory and one of my friends was a coach there, and she would say, who are you dedicating this workout to? And I love that. That’s so cool. It’s so cool. And so, you know, it’s this kind of, this little tiny thing you can do and I would dedicate my workouts every single day to my kids. Yeah, because I thought, I’m gonna be strong for you. I’m gonna do this for you. It just, it helped. It helped with a really tough workout. Yeah and then you might get to a point where you show up one day and you’re like, you know what? Yeah. I’m dedicating this workout to me Absolutely. Just to me because deserve it. Absolutely. I had, what was I, it was either listening to a podcast or it was a guest. I can’t remember it all blurs together, but they said something that was so impactful to me, which was he was in long-term recovery and he said. When I look back to when I was younger, I think if my dad 
[00:33:00] had taken better care of himself, he would’ve been the dad I needed at that time. Wow. That’s impactful. It hit. Yeah, it hit me hard ’cause I was like, I don’t want my kids looking back at their teen years or whatever and saying, wow, yeah, my mom was a mess. Like, I wish my mom would’ve been healthier. I wish she would’ve taken time for herself. ’cause she would’ve been a better mom to me. She would’ve been the mom I needed her to be. Yeah. I was like, ouch. That. Yes. So. There are a lot of different ways to think about it, but hopefully we’ve given you some ways to sort of reframe what our culture and society tells us is like not the thing to do, like go do all the other things before taking care of you and we know that like if you’re in the thick of it right now, it’s probably more self preservation than it is 
[00:34:00] self care, like self care is what Cathy and I get to do now because we’re not in the crisis. Yes, we are maintaining ourselves, loving ourselves, gifting ourselves beautiful experiences because we want to be super healthy and whole and really helpful to our kids. If you’re in the thick of it with your child, you are hanging on for dear life and we want to just acknowledge that mm-hmm. Like by the hair of your chiney chin chin, right. You’re hanging on like, I don’t know if I can make it to tomorrow and that’s why we say start small with a walk, with water, with real food, with a five minute meditation as you’re going to sleep, whatever it is. Your kiddo needs you to do that for them, so Yeah. Yeah. Here’s your permission to do that for them. Love that. Love it. Yep. Whew. It’s a lot already and we still have a couple more. 
[00:35:00] This one, we see this all the time because we recently did some analytics in our community. As you all know, I love data. I think it just comes from the marketer in me and what we found out is that our Warrior Moms group, which is our group for adult children. Usually 20 and up is the most active group in our community, and this means that, so these warrior moms have kids who are in active addiction in treatment and in early recovery. We just know that if you have a 20 something or early 30 something, you’re dealing with different things than if you have a 14 or 15-year-old. So anyway, that was interesting. So if you have a older child. That’s right. You have different challenges and so we, one of the things that we were thinking that we know people are Googling is like, how do I help 
[00:36:00] my young adult child who probably doesn’t live with you and may not really be in much contact with you? Oh my gosh, it’s a hard place it is the worst place and the worst feeling in the world. ’cause talk about your brain going into overdrive, imagining all the scenarios. Not to mention, the consequences of having an older child or so, you know, whether it’s legal or what, you know, there’s, it’s just so much more. And when they are barely in contact with you, you feel ’cause I know what this is, like that one time that they reach out, you feel like I gotta spill everything. I gotta say everything that I need to say because I might not get an opportunity to do it down the line. Does that sound kind of familiar to you? A hundred percent, yeah. It really does. I think it’s that combination of the worry because 
[00:37:00] you, I don’t know. I don’t know which is worse when you’re seeing the chaos and the dis the self-destruction in your home or when you’re just imagining the chaos and the destruction that’s happening outside of your home. I do hear, I would say from our warrior moms that when their young person is not in the house, it does get a little bit easier. It does mean that you have to do more self preservation. Right. Practices. However, not seeing the day-to-day, because what we tend to do is when we’re seeing it, we try to intervene. We try to fix, we try to correct. Yeah, we, and so it’s a blessing and a curse to not be interacting and at the same time, you’re not interacting. So there’s some benefit in that. Yeah. So it’s, I think this is a mentally excruciating situation. It is, it is and why we all these moms warriors, 
[00:38:00] because it is an added layer and it’s really, all the things that we talk about, the skills, the self preservation, everything is, you know, you’re kind of doing this, hoping that you’re gonna have an opportunity to use it, you know, with your kids and anyway, so I think that what we feel instinctually to do too usually goes against what we should do, right? I mean, yeah, I know it’s so instinctual to when they reach out that you’re gonna say. You know, let’s go to treatment. Let’s do all of this and really what you’re trying to do instead is you just need to pull back and just be there keeping it neutral so that you know they’re not feeling every time that they reach out, they’re gonna get a lecture or this incredible pressure to stop the lifestyle that they’re living and that is working for them as we know in whatever way that is.
[00:39:00] Yeah, it’s so hard. It’s so hard and I think this is the time where we would say double down on learning CRAFT skills. Yeah, double down on your self preservation practices, because like you said, you don’t wanna make every interaction that you do get, and maybe that’s three times a year, right? Like it, this could be very minimal. When you do have those interactions, you don’t want to go and just like vomit all of the help and all of the resources and all of your fear and all of your anxiety, because that’s gonna just make them back off even more. Dina is a great example of this will link to her episodes as well. She went through this with her son who was homeless for a few years and being able to get yourself to a place where you can be grounded and centered enough that when they do reach 
[00:40:00] out or if you reach out, you can just say, I love you, I’m thinking about you. Yeah and make it known in whatever way is appropriate that you are there to support them If they do want to get help, but don’t make that offer every single time. Right. Yeah. Otherwise, they’re just gonna feel pressured. So it’s rough though. Newsflash, they usually know that, right? Most often know how much you love them. They most often know that you’re willing to provide support, whatever that is, you know what I always thought was the best thing to send my kids when they were really struggling were pictures of our dog. You know, I mean, something that they could, you know, they just love that, right? Because it was just really, your dog is kind of a neutral animal in your home and everyone loves the dog or your pet. Yeah. Whatever that is and so, just really be mindful and think about what is it? How can I connect with my kid? Maybe they really like [00:41:00] sports, maybe, think of the topics that they really enjoy and because if you really feel that you need to do something. Think of what your kid maybe wants to hear that doesn’t involve treatment substances or the guilt of, I love you so much and why are you doing this? Right? Because they know that Yeah. They know how much you love them. So anyway. Yeah and one of the other CRAFT procedures that works really well in this situation is positive reinforcement. Mm-hmm. So maybe you don’t hear from them a lot, but you know that they are working or that they have a decent relationship, you can reinforce those to say. It’s really admirable that you show up for work every day or I’m so glad you have a supportive girlfriend or boyfriend or whoever it is. So those are the little things that go a long way to keeping, you and I talked a lot about keeping that bridge constructed. That’s I always like to think in sort of 
[00:42:00] those kind of metaphors where, you’re just keeping the bridge connected there, and at some point they will likely want to walk over it toward you, so don’t tear the bridge down and create this huge like crevice where there is no connection, where they don’t feel like they can reach out to you and get some support quickly. So just the positive reinforcement, taking care of yourself, those are, and allowing natural consequences. Oh, is, yeah. I hate that it has to happen. I know those are, you know. Sometimes people will be like, well, can I use CRAFT when I don’t have my kid like living with me? Of course, it’s easier if they live with you or if they live near you, but if they don’t, these things still apply because how many times did I get the call, you know, after months of not talking and all of a sudden my son’s in jail and wants bail? That’s a situation where your instinct 
[00:43:00] is like, oh my gosh, they’re finally reaching out. Right, right. Like and I would be robbing him of the natural consequences if I did that. So CRAFT still works if your kid’s not living with you. You just have to tweak it a little bit and maybe think about it in some different ways, you know? Right, right. Love that. Love the not rescuing and jumping in right away, you know? So, ’cause that also is a natural consequence, right? I mean, I think that, I was talking to someone today, we were talking about. It’s so easy for us as parents to jump in quickly when our kids are struggling and really you can give them a taste of, I don’t know if you even call it a natural consequence, but you can make them a little uncomfortable if you wait just a little bit before you go. Maybe it’s a week. We’re not talking about if a kid needs, it comes to you and says, I’m ready for help right now, but 
[00:44:00] sometimes we’re so quick to jump in, because they need bail, like you said, or whatever that is and if we kind of just pull back just a little bit and, gotta get the money together, whatever the answer is, that helps bring those natural consequences. Let them sit in it a little bit and it makes a difference. Yeah. Yeah. It is the hardest thing. It’s so interesting because the natural consequences, which is also often referred to as the invisible intervention or the art of doing nothing, which is, you know, letting somebody feel the world’s impact. As a result of what you’re doing and I don’t think we’re sitting here being like Pollyanna about it because we know there can be very real and dangerous consequences, right. Maybe you have a child who has a very unhealthy or abusive relationship that they’re in. Yeah and your child keeps going back to this person and you 
[00:45:00] would love to intervene and maybe move them out of the state or do whatever you can to get in the way of that and in that situation, I think there is absolutely value in helping make them aware of what a healthy relationship would look like versus what they’re in doing, all those kinds of things but not overstepping that. Yeah because otherwise they won’t get that gift of desperation that we talk about a lot. So, you’ve gotta allow the downsides because the only time they’re gonna wanna change is when the downsides outweigh the upsides and if you’re holding all of those downsides for them, A sucks for you. ’cause that’s really hard. It’s true and B, they’re not feeling them, so why are they going to change? Right.  And this, you know, we talk about this a lot. This is where I think you have to have a really good therapist of your own so that 
[00:46:00] as you are allowing unfortunate things to happen to your child, which feels completely counterintuitive to how we are wired as parents. Naturally, we wanna keep our kids safe. You need somebody who can really hold you through that. I mean, we do that in the community. There’s, you know, every day somebody is talking about, Hey mamas, I just need some support right now ’cause I’m allowing this to happen and it is painful. However, I think there’s often deeper stuff there about attachment, right? That Oh yeah. Just gets at the core of who we are. So, if you can have a therapist to hold you through that, I would highly recommend it. But yeah, I think you and I both believe, if we could just gift somebody the ability to really act on one thing, it would be natural consequences. Yeah. Yeah. The hardest thing and the most impactful for I tell you, you listen to every 
[00:47:00] recovery story and it’s what’s crazy is how often parents are mentioned in that natural consequence situation. It was when my mom, when my dad, when, you know, whatever it was, when they said, I’m not gonna support you in this anymore, whatever it is, that was when you know that person realize, like this is just too heavy to hold and it brought them to, you know, a life of recovery. So I think that we don’t give that enough, just we don’t show that enough and know parents maybe just, maybe they hear it and they just don’t wanna hear it. They don’t wanna absorb it, I guess is the word but, it really does make a difference. It really does, and it’s one of the hardest things as parents, like you said, that we have to do one of the most difficult things. Yeah, it’s hard. The other one, the other thing that we wanted to talk about, which is also difficult, is to reward non-using 
[00:48:00] behavior. This is a CRAFT approach that we, I think people have questions about. Now, I don’t know that this is something that they’re Googling, but I wanted to just bring it up because it can be hard when your child is actively using and they have periods where they’re not using, right and you feel like, well wait. If I am nice to them and I quote, unquote reward them when they’re not using, that doesn’t make sense, right? Like, I need to be mean to them. I need to be harsh and confrontational with them so that they stop using and we hear this enough that we just wanted to just tap on this for a second because this is a big missed opportunity. Mm-hmm. This is a hugely crafty maneuver. Mm-hmm. Strategic maneuver and what you’re trying to do is when they are not using, life should feel more 
[00:49:00] connected to you, more rewarding, less friction, less fighting, less tension all of those things and when we say reward, that does not have to mean a monetary or physical reward, right? Because when you lean in and you connect with eye contact, with a hug, with a walk with dog, with making dinner together, all of those things are rewards for non-using behavior. You’re in that relationship, right? Yeah. When they’re not using and I think it’s a confusing, one of the more confusing craft procedures because it sounds weird, right? Yeah. Well it sounds really weird and I think that you also get parents that say, well, I don’t even know when they’re not using. Right? Yeah. So you can gauge that too, by the way. I mean, you know, maybe, if they’re living with you and look, they’re, they just woke up and that’s your opportunity to have a cup of 
[00:50:00] coffee with your kid or maybe they’re not using the stronger stuff, the stronger substances right, find those opportunities to have that connection time because it is really so, so meaningful and oh my gosh, it just feels good as a parent too, to connect on that level when, you know, they’re a little more clear-minded than not. So, anyway and it just makes such a, I love this one because and it’s tough. It’s a tough one, right? Because, like you said, it’s, are you rewarding just them, continuing to use, but that’s not it, it’s just really finding that opportunity for connection is really what you’re doing. You’re finding the opportunity for connection. Yeah and on the flip side of that is another procedure, which is you’re not rewarding using behavior. Yeah. So if they are using, that is not the time when you’re leaning in with, Hey, can I make you a meal? Hey, do you 
[00:51:00] know if they need a ride somewhere? You’re not available for that. Yeah. So that’s the flip side and we talk about this a lot, leaning in and leaning out and when they are under the influence seeking coming down or even if they’re just aggressive and oppositional and all of those things. Yeah. You know, we often say what gets rewarded. Gets repeated. Gets repeated. Right. So rewarding unhealthy behavior with your attention, even with fighting because that Yes. That is dopamine hits, right? When you’re fighting. Yes. When you’re picking up the rope, when you’re playing tug of war, that is a reward for negative behavior. So the flip side of the rewarding non-using behavior is when they’re using, you’re out. You’re not interested, right? You’re going to the gym, you’re having coffee with your friends, you’re reading a book in your room, whatever it is, you 
[00:52:00] are not engaging in that behavior and that takes a lot of presence of mind and self-control. Which is why that whole self-preservation thing is so important. And I just need to bring this up because it happens all the time. This is the rage texting part, right? This is where I know I got so caught up in that right too. I mean, you know, so don’t feel bad if you do because your kid reaches out, and then you see the texting start to amp up and get a little crazy. And we call that rage texting, put your phone on silent. Turn it off if you have to walk away, because you’re right, this is a dopamine hit, right? They want that. They want you to reply. They’re demanding for things or whatever that is, and sometimes we just wanna say, fine, I’ll send you an Uber. I’ll do whatever it is, because you just want it to go away. Especially if you’re like me and you really wanna be conflict avoidant. 
[00:53:00] This is when you really have to pull in and say, you know what? I’m walking away. I’m walking away. So yeah. Yep. Yeah. Well I think that covers most of what we wanted to talk about. There’s, I mean, there’s a lot of Googling that goes on. There’s actually a tool, I’m a little afraid to dive into it ’cause I’m gonna love it so much. But there’s actually a tool that we can use to like understand what, you know, what Google searches people are doing around this, which could be interesting. Maybe we’ll do that and do another episode. Yeah. But these are ones that we just, we see and we hear in person as we’re working with our moms in the community, and so thought we would share these and just let you know you’re not alone if you’re Googling these things or even if you’re just thinking these things, you’re not alone. You’re so not alone. Just we’re sending you all so much love because we know how very difficult this is and just give yourself so much grace because really with the things that we
[00:54:00] talked about today, there is hope and there is a way to get stronger mentally, physically, and be there for your kiddo. So anyway, yeah, it takes a lot of work. It does, but you can do it. It’s worth it. Right? We always have to ask at the end of the day, why am I doing all of this work? Yeah. Why am I trying to be strategic and be crafty and change myself? And it’s because it’s worth it. Right? Your child is worth it and they’re still in there. I know. It might not seem like they are. Might seem like there’s some foreign person standing in front of you. Like I remember, like, I recognize this body mostly. I do not recognize the human that is inhabiting this body right now. Yeah. And if that’s where you are, just know that they’re still in there. It just takes different ways of figuring out how can I 
[00:55:00] connect with this person? What do they care about? What are they worried about? What are they feeling? Yeah. And just know that you can get there. I love that, Brenda, because they are in there. There’s this, there’s these little moments of clarity and you see them and it’s like, oh, they’re there. They’re still there and to know also, you are worth it. You are absolutely worth it. Yes and so if anything, just, you know, if that’s what drives you, just know that you’re worth it. So,  yeah. All right. Well thanks for hopping on with me. Yeah, it was fun. Talk to you next time. See you later, Brenda. Bye-Bye. Bye.